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The Empty Cross: Why Jesus Didn't Exist [Complete DVD Part 1 of 7]
Probably, this has been posted before. However, it's worth posting again for anyone who missed it before.
In the light of so much information against the existence of Jesus, why
Re: The empty cross: Why jesus didn't exist complete dvd part 1 of 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by westsideozzie
this one will be easy..... Have you yourself untold ever seen George Washington?
No, I PERSONALLY haven't seen George Washington, and nor has anyone alive today.
HOWEVER, there is OVERWHELMING interlocking recorded information about him by NUMEROUS people who knew him personally and professionally .... to the very last personal detail, and numerous portraits .. there is NO SPECULATION about what he looked like.
On the other hand, we don't really know where and when Jesus was born, when he died; we don't know what he did with his life between the age 12-30. We don't know what he really looked like because there are no portraits of him and no detailed description, so people have simply created him in their own image. You'd think those who knew him and considered him the Messiah would have saved his personal belongings ... shoes, clothes, anything he had written down... ZILCH, except for the Shroud of Turin which is still under debate by some and totally dismissed by others, including the Vatican. We have no portraits of his mother nor any background of this mysterious virgin. We don't know if Jesus got married or not, some speculate that he did marry Mary Magdalene. Others speculate that he was gay. His critical details, however, seem to match those of pagan sun gods that were worshipped long before the advent of Christianity. (I'm talking Dec 25, teacher at age 12, healing/miracles, 12 followers, arising 3 days after death/crucifixion, etc).
Now, do you have another question? Make it a hard one this time.
Re: The empty cross: Why jesus didn't exist complete dvd part 1 of 7
It's one thing to question his divinity, but his existence is almost unquestionable
The verdict of expert historians
Almost all historians believe Jesus did indeed live. The following quotes from historians who have specialised in that period of history are typical:
I don't think there's any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus .... We have more evidence for Jesus than we have for almost anybody from his time period.
Prof Bart Ehrman, University of North Carolina
we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ..... In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."
The late Michael Grant, eminent historian of the Roman Empire
Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E."
Prof James Charlesworth, Princeton Theological Seminary
Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it [the theory that Jesus didn't exist] as effectively refuted."
Robert Van Voorst, Western Theological Seminary
The historical evidence for Jesus himself is extraordinarily good. .... From time to time people try to suggest that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, but virtually all historians of whatever background now agree that he did"
Re: The empty cross: Why jesus didn't exist complete dvd part 1 of 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddawg
It's one thing to question his divinity, but his existence is almost unquestionable
The verdict of expert historians
Almost all historians believe Jesus did indeed live. The following quotes from historians who have specialised in that period of history are typical:
I don't think there's any serious historian who doubts the existence of Jesus .... We have more evidence for Jesus than we have for almost anybody from his time period.
Prof Bart Ehrman, University of North Carolina
we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ..... In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."
The late Michael Grant, eminent historian of the Roman Empire
Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E."
Prof James Charlesworth, Princeton Theological Seminary
Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it [the theory that Jesus didn't exist] as effectively refuted."
Robert Van Voorst, Western Theological Seminary
The historical evidence for Jesus himself is extraordinarily good. .... From time to time people try to suggest that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, but virtually all historians of whatever background now agree that he did"
NT Wright
Why have none of them been able to determine what Jesus did with his life between the age of 12-30.
You'd think such an important historical figure would have left a legacy of details.
Did he marry? If so, who did he marry? If not, why not... and why didn't he have children to carry forth his legacy and so that we could one day look at his DNA.
The most important aspect of his life was his crucifixion... yet why is there debate over whether he was nailed to a cross or to a stake? These are basic details... if we have no answers here... how are we to believe he healed the sick, raised the dead, feed the masses with a few loaves and fishes, walked on water, etc.
David Copperfield - the magician - made the Statue of Liberty disappear in front of a live audience of over 1000 people. Sounds like a miracle... except that we know he's a clever magician... not a miracle worker.
Re: The empty cross: Why jesus didn't exist complete dvd part 1 of 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by untold
Why have none of them been able to determine what Jesus did with his life between the age of 12-30.
You'd think such an important historical figure would have left a legacy of details.
Did he marry? If so, who did he marry? If not, why not... and why didn't he have children to carry forth his legacy and so that we could one day look at his DNA.
The most important aspect of his life was his crucifixion... yet why is there debate over whether he was nailed to a cross or to a stake? These are basic details... if we have no answers here... how are we to believe he healed the sick, raised the dead, feed the masses with a few loaves and fishes, walked on water, etc.
David Copperfield - the magician - made the Statue of Liberty disappear in front of a live audience of over 1000 people. Sounds like a miracle... except that we know he's a clever magician... not a miracle worker.
Like I said, his divinity is a fair question for a skeptic, his existence...not so much. Certainly by comparison, you are not suggesting that David Copperfield doesn't exist. Don't confuse the two concepts.
Re: The empty cross: Why jesus didn't exist complete dvd part 1 of 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddawg
Like I said, his divinity is a fair question for a skeptic, his existence...not so much. Certainly by comparison, you are not suggesting that David Copperfield doesn't exist. Don't confuse the two concepts.
No, my point in mentioning DC is that I am constantly bombarded by the miracles Jesus performed ... and I wanted to say that a clever magician is not a miracle worker.
But you're ABSOLUTELY right, the topic here is the existence of Jesus, not whether or not he really performed miracles.
Re: The empty cross: Why jesus didn't exist complete dvd part 1 of 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by untold
Is it possible for the creator of a thread to edit the subject heading?
Yep. Click Advanced Edit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddawg
It's one thing to question his divinity, but his existence is almost unquestionable The verdict of expert historians
Almost all historians believe Jesus did indeed live.
I've long been agnostic on Jesus' existence, leaning toward thinking him real. But this respected scholar makes a persuasive case that the tide is changing toward consensus among Jesus scholars that he was a mythical figure (the "mythicists") and not a historical figure (the "historicists"). He says the most respected historicists are either changing their minds, or admitting that it's uncertain.
Richard Carrier... holds a Ph.D. from Columbia University in ancient history, specializing in the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, particularly ancient philosophy, religion, and science, with emphasis on the origins of Christianity and the use and progress of science under the Roman empire... His latest book is Proving History: Bayes's Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus. He is currently working on his next books, On the Historicity of Jesus Christ, The Scientist in the Early Roman Empire, and Science Education in the Early Roman Empire.
Oct 23, 2012
... The biggest news is that the renowned biblical historian and New Testament expert Thomas Brodie (author of The Birthing of the New Testament [2004] and Director of the Dominican Biblical Centre,in affiliation with the University of Limerick, Ireland) has just come out as a Jesus mythicist. He has a new book that explicitly argues that Jesus never historically existed: Thomas Brodie, Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: A Memoir of a Discovery (published by the respected academic press Sheffield-Phoenix). This is a huge development. His conclusion: “it is already possible and necessary to draw a conclusion: it is that, bluntly, Jesus did not exist as a historical individual.” ...
At the same time, Philip Davies, Emeritus Professor of Biblical Studies at the University of Sheffield, England, published an article with the online journal The Bible and Interpretation, entitled “Did Jesus Exist?"... Davies affirms that he believes in the historicity of Jesus. But he is alarmed by... implied threats against the professions of anyone who would dare question the historicity of Jesus, ... and then concludes:
I don’t think, however, that in another 20 years there will be a consensus that Jesus did not exist, or even possibly didn’t exist, but a recognition that his existence is not entirely certain would nudge Jesus scholarship towards academic respectability.
...He acknowledges that in fact the evidence for historicity is rather weak and extremely problematic, and not at all cut-and-dried, and in no way warrants the kind of rhetoric coming from the likes of Ehrman. He says, in fact, that admitting it’s possible Jesus didn’t exist is the only way the field can maintain academic respectability.
This is almost as huge a development, as Philip Davies is a renowned scholar and (now emeritus) professor specializing in Judaism and the Dead Sea Scrolls (author of Behind the Essenes: History and Ideology in the Dead Sea Scrolls [1987] and Scribes and Schools: The Canonization of the Hebrew Scriptures [1998]). It is a major turn of events for someone like him to admit that doubting the historicity of Jesus is respectable...
Combine this with Brodie’s defection to mythicism, alongside Thompson’s, and (like Thompson’s) the publicly professed “historicity agnosticism” of Arthur Droge, professor of early Christianity at UCSD, and Kurt Noll, associate professor of religion at Brandon University, and Ehrman’s argument that only amateurs and outsiders take the Jesus Myth theory seriously is now in the dust.
There is still, certainly, a litany of crank and amateur mythicist nonsense. But there is also a serious case to be made, by serious and well-qualified scholars. And they need to be paid attention to, not dismissed and mistreated, their arguments straw manned or ignored.
Re: The empty cross: Why jesus didn't exist complete dvd part 1 of 7
Hahaha are you guys the only two in here? Both points real or not can be proven and disproven twelve times over but theres nothing wrong with good conversation Just don't get nasty.
Re: The empty cross: Why jesus didn't exist complete dvd part 1 of 7
Very interesting, thanks! It all makes perfect sense, too bad I missed it during history classes when Rome was discussed with no word of Jesus.
However, does it matter if he existed? By modern standards, he'd be considered a lunatic or an insurgent way up high on any watch/wanted list. Whatever the truth about his existence, religion and its representatives need to be seen within their time and context. Since modern people know better than to pretend they're related to God and have superhuman powers, and offer themselves to be tortured to death because the voice in their head tells them it's okay, I don't see why Jesus still has a following. The good he did? Like the stuff that's superhuman and unlikely to actually have happened? Or the charity any decent person can do without involving God? Nah, I never got the whole Jesus hype.
Also the virgin giving birth is a mistranslation. In the original language, Mary was referred to as being of a certain age that translates into what should be a virgin, so basically she got raped or had her childhood married out of her when she was a young teen. What a lovely story to build a family holiday around. Maybe that was the whole start. She hated the sex and so they told her "But hey, you're having a super-special child!" and she bought it and everyone played along until it got out of hand. LOL I'd love that
The only fictitious characters who ever saved me, were the Bikermice from Mars.