Originally Posted by MrAtlanta
DTE Energy originally cut off power on Dec. 11 at the request of a customer who was moving out, and there had been no new request
DTE Energy originally cut off power on Dec. 11 at the request of a customer who was moving out, and there had been no new request for it to be turned back on, spokesman Scott Simons said.
No active account?
If this is true, it is news to me. I was under the impression that she had an EXISTING account that was shut off due to non-payment. This adds a whole new dimension to the case. But I still refuse to sit here and denegrate this poor woman. No one feels worse than she does right now. She's the one who's going to have to live with this for the rest of her life. So cut her some slack and stop being so judgmental. Judging her won't bring back three precious lives. Instead of judging, why not take up a collection and send it to the Children Memorial Fund at any Comerica Bank. That would be much more helpful.
N*cca please, you was just throwing DTE all the way under the bus. Now it's "don't be so judgemental." Blaming DTE wasn't gonna bring them back either, but you were more than willing to join the angry mob.
DTE Energy originally cut off power on Dec. 11 at the request of a customer who was moving out, and there had been no new request for it to be turned back on, spokesman Scott Simons said.
No active account?
If this is true, it is news to me. I was under the impression that she had an EXISTING account that was shut off due to non-payment. This adds a whole new dimension to the case. But I still refuse to sit here and denegrate this poor woman. No one feels worse than she does right now. She's the one who's going to have to live with this for the rest of her life. So cut her some slack and stop being so judgmental. Judging her won't bring back three precious lives. Instead of judging, why not take up a collection and send it to the Children Memorial Fund at any Comerica Bank. That would be much more helpful.
A Memorial Fund to be used for what exactly?? Id rather see people offering to pay for the funerals of those poor babies who were clearly being neglected. Hopefully, thats what you're referring to.
__________________
"I must learn to love the fool in me, the one who feels too much, talks too much, takes too many chances, wins sometimes and loses often, lacks self-control, loves and hates, hurts and gets hurt, promises and breaks promises, laughs and cries. " - Theodore Rubin
State attempts to victimize mother of fire victims
Sylvia Young says she pled with Detroit utility to keep heat on
By Jerry White
6 March 2010
The Michigan state government is attempting to victimize the mother of three young children who died in a fire that erupted only hours after the family’s utilities were shut off on Tuesday.
The state attorney general general’s office has reportedly filed a neglect case against Sylvia Young, 30, for not being home at the time of the blaze. Young says she fears the state will attempt to take away the four children who survived.
The move by the state is part of a media-backed campaign to blame Young for the tragedy, covering up for those who are responsible: DTE Energy for cutting off her utilities, and the government for approving the utility company’s policy.
Young told the World Socialist Web Site that she pled with an employee from DTE not to shut off electricity and gas service to her house on the day of the fire. She said that the DTE employee knew that there was a family with young children living in the home, but said that he had to do his job and shut off the utilities.
A space heater the single mother was forced to use to warm her seven children is believed to have caused the fire, which quickly engulfed the old wooden structure on the 4600 block of Bangor on the city’s west side.
The fire was the latest of a series of deadly blazes since December, which have claimed at least 14 victims, the majority of whom had their utilities cut off.
Lost in the March 2 fire were Tro’vion Young, 5, Fantasia Young, 4 and Selena Young, 3, who died of smoke inhalation and soot. Thanks to the quick and collective action by neighbors the other children made it out alive, including three-month-old Serena, who was tossed from the second floor window. Sylvia’s 8-year-old son, Jalen, 11-year-old son, Tywon, and 6-year-old son JaShawn also escaped.
Serena and Jalen Young were discharged in good health from Children’s Hospital in Detroit on Thursday.
Sylvia Young told the WSWS that she asked the DTE representative to wait until her landlord could bring proof she was renting the house and that the landlord was responsible for utilities. But the technician said he couldn’t wait. The gas and electric meters were then padlocked, cutting off service to a home with seven children, including a fourth-monthold baby.
Spokesmen for DTE Energy have said they cut off service to the home because it had been “illegally” hooked up and there was no record of a paying account at the address after previous residents moved out in mid-December and cancelled their service.
The utility company’s policy is to automatically cut off service when they see an unauthorized hook-up, regardless of the consequences this will cause the occupants. A company spokesman, Len Singer, said, if the company was aware of an unauthorized hook-up, “we're going to take action on it.”This, he said, was for safety reasons, downplaying the company’s concerns over lost revenue.
Standard procedure was knocking on the door and trying to make contact with the occupant of the home, Singer said, “so a proper account can be opened in their name.” He claimed not to know whether any contact was made with Sylvia Young on Tuesday.
Told that it would be apparent to anyone that there were small children in the house, who would be deprived heat in the winter, Singer responded, “I don't know that there was evidence that there were occupants of that house. We had no information about the owner who might have been there or what the make-up of the people might have been. We wouldn't know if there was a family or children,” he claimed because there was no record of payment activity.
In her interview with the WSWS Sylvia Young debunked these claims. “Nobody contacted me from DTE before Tuesday. Then they came to my door and said they had an order to turn off my lights. The guy said he had to do it.”
Far from being unaware of the presence of children, the technician saw them as he was standing at the front door. “He saw my kids. They were running in and out of the front door past him. They were all there. But the guy just kept saying he was just doing his job.”
Sylvia told the WSWS that the lights and gas were in her landlord’s name and were included in $650 in rent she paid each month. “The DTE guy said if I showed him a lease statement saying how long I had been there that might help. I told him that my landlord was on the way with the lease and he would be there in 15 minutes or maybe half an hour. He said he couldn’t wait.”
She continued, “I had an outstanding bill from before with DTE—that’s why I put the utilities in my landlord’s name. I knew they wouldn’t hook the services back up because of what I owed, and I couldn’t afford to pay it.
“Even if I came up with the lease they were still going to cut it off. I was paying the landlord but DTE was still going to make me pay before putting the service on.”
In an effort to exonerate the utility company of any responsibility, the news media and DTE Energy have said the tragedy was due to the electricity being illegally turned back on by the landlord’s handyman after it had been shut off earlier in the day.
On Wednesday, both daily newspapers reported that DTE investigators found that the locks placed on the electric and gas meters had been cut after service was shut off. According to the Detroit Free Press, “The Detroit Fire Department is investigating whether that second illegal hookup led to the deaths of three children.”
The effort to label Detroiters as “energy thieves” is a libel aimed at concealing the fact that it was the socially criminal action of DTE that set into motion the events that led to this tragedy. The media’s portrayal of events also lays the groundwork for victimizing Sylvia Young.
From the very beginning, the media sought to discredit this young mother, suggesting that she had abandoned her children because she was out of the house at the time of the fire. This collapsed when it was revealed that she was out shopping at the local dollar store for space heaters after DTE had shut off the heat. The space heater brought to her landlord’s handyman was faulty and gave off sparks.
“The media is trying to destroy me,” Sylvia told the WSWS, “and make me look like I am a bad parent. I didn't know I was leaving my children in danger or I would never have left. All I can do is think about the kids.”
While seeking to criminalize the poor, the media says nothing about the levels of poverty and desperation that are leading Detroiters to take the dangerous step of jerry-rigging hook ups to power lines, an action that has led to many electrocutions. As a result of the sharp hike in unemployment, particularly in the auto industry, one out of ten residents in southeast Michigan had utilities shut off by DTE last year, a 50 percent increase over 2008.
Sylvia told the WSWS, “I am on FIA (Family Independence Agency) assistance. I’m raising seven kids on $347 every two weeks. Out of that I pay $650 a month in rent.”
As part of their public relations campaign, DTE and the media often say that the utility company will provide help for those struggling with their bills.
Sylvia pointed to the hypocrisy of such claims. “DTE never contacted me to help. Everything is a money thing with DTE. If you are a dollar off on your payment plan they will cut you off.
“There are no programs to help. Everybody lined up last summer at the State Fair Grounds thinking they were going to get money to help pay their utilities bills. It didn’t work out. It was still going to cost you out-of-pocket money. After waiting for hours and hours in line they shut the thing down before I even got to the front.”
We're in the midst of a deep recession right now, and the city of Detroit is in an even deeper recession. The unemployment rate in Detroit is almost 45 percent, and I'll bet that more-than-half the residents (in Detroit), are having difficulty keeping their power/gas on.
__________________
A Nation Or Race Can Rise No Higher Than The Moral Position Of Its Woman. As The Black Woman Goes, So Goes The Black Race.
A Memorial Fund to be used for what exactly?? Id rather see people offering to pay for the funerals of those poor babies who were clearly being neglected. Hopefully, thats what you're referring to.
That's exactly what I was referring to. A funeral for three is very expensive, I'm sure.
__________________
A Nation Or Race Can Rise No Higher Than The Moral Position Of Its Woman. As The Black Woman Goes, So Goes The Black Race.
That's exactly what I was referring to. A funeral for three is very expensive, I'm sure.
Memorial Fund is ambiguous. And ofcourse I sympathize with this woman's loss. But I sympathize more with her children who were clearly being neglected. Noone told her to have 7 kids before 30 all while she was collecting a govt check. This doesnt have shit to do with the economy. And I dont know what your source was for that article you posted but it doesnt even sound like journalism. Sounds more like an advocacy group that wants to paint this woman as a victim. DTE is not a non profit. There are resources available if you can't pay your bills. This didnt need to happen.
__________________
"I must learn to love the fool in me, the one who feels too much, talks too much, takes too many chances, wins sometimes and loses often, lacks self-control, loves and hates, hurts and gets hurt, promises and breaks promises, laughs and cries. " - Theodore Rubin
N*cca please, you was just throwing DTE all the way under the bus. Now it's "don't be so judgemental." Blaming DTE wasn't gonna bring them back either, but you were more than willing to join the angry mob.
Chris,
Climb down off of that high horse and give it a rest, okay?
__________________
A Nation Or Race Can Rise No Higher Than The Moral Position Of Its Woman. As The Black Woman Goes, So Goes The Black Race.
Climb down off of that high horse and give it a rest, okay?
Boy please. You were the one spouting off at the mouth about other people being "judgmental" instead of just admitting you were wrong, but I'm on MY high horse.
She & Her landlord agree to have utilities in his name
Utilities were NEVER shut on legitimately
2 Months after moving in their ILLEGAL service is cut off
Begging with the meter man is tooo late, unless you have the funds then but that didnt even matter there was NO ACCOUNT to pay for.
So shady handyman comes and turns it back in addition to leaving a fire hazard of a heater that is duct taped sending out sparks
Mother leaves a 12 yr old in charge of 6 other kids when he barely should be left alone by himself
HMMMMM there are a few negligent parties and the power company is not one of them SORRY!!
Its not about a high horse but responsibility and lack there of , i feel terrible for her but the outrage against GTE isnt warranted unless there is a law on the matter and even then they didnt have an ACCOUNT in the first place.
Who's fault is it that she gave birth to 7 kids she can't afford? Who's fault is it that she left them alone to go "purchase" space heaters? Of all the winter days, she choose that day to go buy a heater?
THIEVES LIKE HER IS THE REASON PEOPLE PAY HIGH FEES FOR THEIR ELECTRICITY.
I'm not mad that she went to go buy extra space heaters. There was no way she'd be able to get those heaters with all those kids in tow.
We don't know WHY she was doing an illegal hookup either. Maybe it was cheaper. If I was the handyman I probably would have hooked up electricity too. She got kids and it's freakin' cold in Detroit. If her youngest kids would have froze to death then what would the utility company have said??? It wouldn't have killed them to leave her electricity and gas on until it got warmer. Bastids.
My problem is the amount of children she has (or had). What born and bred American woman (whose lineage goes back generations in THIS country - not talking about foreigners here) would voluntarily on purpose have seven freakin' kids they couldn't afford???!!! Shit, three is too many for me.
Maybe now her dumb arse will be on some type of birth control. I feel sorry for her oldest, because you know she made that one be the SECOND mama (or papa that was never there), because she was a loser bitch.
State attempts to victimize mother of fire victims
Sylvia Young says she pled with Detroit utility to keep heat on
By Jerry White
6 March 2010
The Michigan state government is attempting to victimize the mother of three young children who died in a fire that erupted only hours after the family’s utilities were shut off on Tuesday.
The state attorney general general’s office has reportedly filed a neglect case against Sylvia Young, 30, for not being home at the time of the blaze. Young says she fears the state will attempt to take away the four children who survived.
The move by the state is part of a media-backed campaign to blame Young for the tragedy, covering up for those who are responsible: DTE Energy for cutting off her utilities, and the government for approving the utility company’s policy.
Young told the World Socialist Web Site that she pled with an employee from DTE not to shut off electricity and gas service to her house on the day of the fire. She said that the DTE employee knew that there was a family with young children living in the home, but said that he had to do his job and shut off the utilities.
A space heater the single mother was forced to use to warm her seven children is believed to have caused the fire, which quickly engulfed the old wooden structure on the 4600 block of Bangor on the city’s west side.
The fire was the latest of a series of deadly blazes since December, which have claimed at least 14 victims, the majority of whom had their utilities cut off.
Lost in the March 2 fire were Tro’vion Young, 5, Fantasia Young, 4 and Selena Young, 3, who died of smoke inhalation and soot. Thanks to the quick and collective action by neighbors the other children made it out alive, including three-month-old Serena, who was tossed from the second floor window. Sylvia’s 8-year-old son, Jalen, 11-year-old son, Tywon, and 6-year-old son JaShawn also escaped.
Serena and Jalen Young were discharged in good health from Children’s Hospital in Detroit on Thursday.
Sylvia Young told the WSWS that she asked the DTE representative to wait until her landlord could bring proof she was renting the house and that the landlord was responsible for utilities. But the technician said he couldn’t wait. The gas and electric meters were then padlocked, cutting off service to a home with seven children, including a fourth-monthold baby.
Spokesmen for DTE Energy have said they cut off service to the home because it had been “illegally” hooked up and there was no record of a paying account at the address after previous residents moved out in mid-December and cancelled their service.
The utility company’s policy is to automatically cut off service when they see an unauthorized hook-up, regardless of the consequences this will cause the occupants. A company spokesman, Len Singer, said, if the company was aware of an unauthorized hook-up, “we're going to take action on it.”This, he said, was for safety reasons, downplaying the company’s concerns over lost revenue.
Standard procedure was knocking on the door and trying to make contact with the occupant of the home, Singer said, “so a proper account can be opened in their name.” He claimed not to know whether any contact was made with Sylvia Young on Tuesday.
Told that it would be apparent to anyone that there were small children in the house, who would be deprived heat in the winter, Singer responded, “I don't know that there was evidence that there were occupants of that house. We had no information about the owner who might have been there or what the make-up of the people might have been. We wouldn't know if there was a family or children,” he claimed because there was no record of payment activity.
In her interview with the WSWS Sylvia Young debunked these claims. “Nobody contacted me from DTE before Tuesday. Then they came to my door and said they had an order to turn off my lights. The guy said he had to do it.”
Far from being unaware of the presence of children, the technician saw them as he was standing at the front door. “He saw my kids. They were running in and out of the front door past him. They were all there. But the guy just kept saying he was just doing his job.”
Sylvia told the WSWS that the lights and gas were in her landlord’s name and were included in $650 in rent she paid each month. “The DTE guy said if I showed him a lease statement saying how long I had been there that might help. I told him that my landlord was on the way with the lease and he would be there in 15 minutes or maybe half an hour. He said he couldn’t wait.”
She continued, “I had an outstanding bill from before with DTE—that’s why I put the utilities in my landlord’s name. I knew they wouldn’t hook the services back up because of what I owed, and I couldn’t afford to pay it.
“Even if I came up with the lease they were still going to cut it off. I was paying the landlord but DTE was still going to make me pay before putting the service on.”
In an effort to exonerate the utility company of any responsibility, the news media and DTE Energy have said the tragedy was due to the electricity being illegally turned back on by the landlord’s handyman after it had been shut off earlier in the day.
On Wednesday, both daily newspapers reported that DTE investigators found that the locks placed on the electric and gas meters had been cut after service was shut off. According to the Detroit Free Press, “The Detroit Fire Department is investigating whether that second illegal hookup led to the deaths of three children.”
The effort to label Detroiters as “energy thieves” is a libel aimed at concealing the fact that it was the socially criminal action of DTE that set into motion the events that led to this tragedy. The media’s portrayal of events also lays the groundwork for victimizing Sylvia Young.
From the very beginning, the media sought to discredit this young mother, suggesting that she had abandoned her children because she was out of the house at the time of the fire. This collapsed when it was revealed that she was out shopping at the local dollar store for space heaters after DTE had shut off the heat. The space heater brought to her landlord’s handyman was faulty and gave off sparks.
“The media is trying to destroy me,” Sylvia told the WSWS, “and make me look like I am a bad parent. I didn't know I was leaving my children in danger or I would never have left. All I can do is think about the kids.”
While seeking to criminalize the poor, the media says nothing about the levels of poverty and desperation that are leading Detroiters to take the dangerous step of jerry-rigging hook ups to power lines, an action that has led to many electrocutions. As a result of the sharp hike in unemployment, particularly in the auto industry, one out of ten residents in southeast Michigan had utilities shut off by DTE last year, a 50 percent increase over 2008.
Sylvia told the WSWS, “I am on FIA (Family Independence Agency) assistance. I’m raising seven kids on $347 every two weeks. Out of that I pay $650 a month in rent.”
As part of their public relations campaign, DTE and the media often say that the utility company will provide help for those struggling with their bills.
Sylvia pointed to the hypocrisy of such claims. “DTE never contacted me to help. Everything is a money thing with DTE. If you are a dollar off on your payment plan they will cut you off.
“There are no programs to help. Everybody lined up last summer at the State Fair Grounds thinking they were going to get money to help pay their utilities bills. It didn’t work out. It was still going to cost you out-of-pocket money. After waiting for hours and hours in line they shut the thing down before I even got to the front.”
We're in the midst of a deep recession right now, and the city of Detroit is in an even deeper recession. The unemployment rate in Detroit is almost 45 percent, and I'll bet that more-than-half the residents (in Detroit), are having difficulty keeping their power/gas on.
I feel for everyone in this story, except the power company. Detroit is one of many big cities on the verge of collapse. People are trying to survive and I can tell from the Fire Dept wanting to be pall bearers that this must be a re-occurring thing throughout the city, except not this bad.
I'm just disgusted that a black american woman in 2010 has seven damn kids and is living off the damn dole. That's what pisses me off. When do you say enough is a fucking nuff?!!
She didn't neglect her children she went to purchase space heaters to keep them warm in 15 degree weather. I would fault her if she DIDN'T do that, but then again, I wouldn't, because like most poor folks she might not have had the money. There should be a law against what utility company did (whether it was illegal or not).
I just can't deal with the seven children at 30 years of age? Is she a muslim or one of them five percent earth bitches?
This is a catch 22 situation. I don't like that DTE cuts off electricity in the dead of winter. In the DC metro area where I live, under no circumstances do they cut off electrity during the winter months because of situations like this.
No one wins in this situation but I also do not believe that because the mother made bad decisions in life that she should be made out to be a villain. Yes, she's on welfare, yes, she's poor, and yes she had 7 kids but she's still a grieving mother who was trying to keep her kids warm. She ran out to get heaters the same day they turned off the electricity for crying out loud. What was she to do? This woman already has so much to deal with because of the death of her children.
She & Her landlord agree to have utilities in his name
Utilities were NEVER shut on legitimately
2 Months after moving in their ILLEGAL service is cut off
Begging with the meter man is tooo late, unless you have the funds then but that didnt even matter there was NO ACCOUNT to pay for.
So shady handyman comes and turns it back in addition to leaving a fire hazard of a heater that is duct taped sending out sparks
Mother leaves a 12 yr old in charge of 6 other kids when he barely should be left alone by himself
HMMMMM there are a few negligent parties and the power company is not one of them SORRY!!
Its not about a high horse but responsibility and lack there of , i feel terrible for her but the outrage against GTE isnt warranted unless there is a law on the matter and even then they didnt have an ACCOUNT in the first place.
I'm well aware of all of that, Jill.
People are outraged because this isn't the first time that this has happened in Detroit, and sadly, it won't be the last. Make no mistake about it. If what this woman says is true and the service technician refused to cut the power back on even after she pleaded with him, then my original argument stands. (See the excerpt of article below in bold.)
Quote:
Excerpt:
In her interview with the WSWS Sylvia Young debunked these claims. “Nobody contacted me from DTE before Tuesday. Then they came to my door and said they had an order to turn off my lights. The guy said he had to do it.”
Far from being unaware of the presence of children, the technician saw them as he was standing at the front door. “He saw my kids. They were running in and out of the front door past him. They were all there. But the guy just kept saying he was just doing his job.”
Sylvia told the WSWS that the lights and gas were in her landlord’s name and were included in $650 in rent she paid each month. “The DTE guy said if I showed him a lease statement saying how long I had been there that might help. I told him that my landlord was on the way with the lease and he would be there in 15 minutes or maybe half an hour. He said he couldn’t wait.”
The overnight low in Detroit was around 15 degrees in late February early March, but obviously none of that mattered to the service tech in question, nor did it matter to DTE. But, like the service tech said, "he was just doing his job". Wasn't no skin off of his ass. If any of this is true, and I believe it is, I hope they prostest the shit out of DTE in Detroit. Hopefully they'll think twice before shutting off someone else's power/gas in 20 degree weather. Perhaps another life will be spared with a change in company policy, and only the way to force a change in policy is through protest and public condemnation.
And the landlord has got a lot to answer for too. He didn't make the payments in a timely fashion like he was supposed to. So there was an ACCOUNT, but not in her name.
__________________
A Nation Or Race Can Rise No Higher Than The Moral Position Of Its Woman. As The Black Woman Goes, So Goes The Black Race.
Last edited by MrAtlanta; 03-08-2010 at 03:27 AM..
Look at this - IF she moved in in January, and let's just ASSUME the landlord DID put the lights in his name, in January - HE WOULD JUST BE GETTING HIS FIRST BILL IN FEBRUARY!!!!! And then he would have, what, 25-30 days to pay??? And then another 30 days for it to become overdue and get a shutoff?????
It would NOT have been shut off in February for an account that just got turned on in January!!!!! Even if he had switched the lights over in December, he still would not have been shut off in February!!!
GEE WHIZ!!!!! Why is this so hard to understand?????????
Now if you want to blame the landlord and say he didn't turn the power on in his own name, as he allegedly promised, now THAT'S a different argument that has not yet been made. But you CANNOT say he didn't make the payments because it was too soon for any payments to be DUE! I know you want so bad for it to be anybody's fault but her own, but you keep reaching at straws and ignoring the FACTS here.
Had that illegal hookup sparked and burned the house down, then that DTE worker would be responsible and lose his job, and DTE would be responsible for not turning it off when they discovered it. And you can bet her family would be suing, claiming they should have turned it off or knocked on her door and warned her that it was dangerous to hook up your own power.
NOw I will agree that the worker COULD HAVE MAYBE agreed to come back later, like, go on and check the rest of his houses and return later to give her another chance. He "could have", I have had workers do that for me sometimes, just to give me time to get money together or whatever. BUT since she had an ILLEGAL hookup, I bet he felt he was obligated to take it off NOW, rather than wait. Again, he could have waited, you know how we give each other the "hookup" sometimes, but I'm willing to bet money that if he came back later, she still wouldn't have a copy of her lease (sideeye) and would have been begging for more time (stalling). It's the whole illegal hookup that sunk her case, whether she did it, or the landlord. I think they are more likely to come back later for you if its just an overdue bill because really, your bill might be overdue but the longer they let you stay on, the more money you owe. If its illegal then they can't even charge you for the power you're using.
And I'm still having a hard time believing she got that kind of a deal on that house - that was a pretty big old house, old houses take a lot more to heat up. I can't see her landlord agreeing to carry the lights and gas for a family of EIGHT, for only $650 a month!!!! Utilities alone had to be at least $300 or $400 a month in the winter. All of those kids???? All of that water, gas to heat the water, lights in every part of the house? Please. He would have made no profit whatsoever. I really don't believe that. If I'm proven wrong, I'll admit it, but I really don't believe it.
I'm tripping at her saying that DTE is all about the money, LOL. So are the grocery stores, the gas station, um, your landlord too if you don't have his money!! And no they don't cut you off for being a dollar off your payment, lol. She really needs to stop talking.
I don't think she should face any charges. It's a sad situation and its not like she left them alone to go to the bar or the club. It was an accident and she was desperate. But you can't blame DTE for fighting back. If they would stop trying to paint the utility company as the murderer, this would all just go away, but DTE is not going to just lie down and take it. As long as they are marching in the streets and pointing fingers, DTE will put their spin doctors up against her and she will find herself going down.
I wonder why she wasn't on Section 8 or some other income-based housing? She certainly qualified.
Blaming DTE wasn't gonna bring them back either, but you were more than willing to join the angry mob.
Boy please. You were the one spouting off at the mouth about other people being "judgmental" instead of just admitting you were wrong, but I'm on MY high horse. 
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