Secular, Non-religious, Agnostic, Atheist discussion. Do not derail discussions in this forum because you are a believer. Take it to the Religious Debate forum.
Tons of Other Religions.......
Originally Posted by Meeko
The reason why I said that It has everything to do with it, is because it does. Understanding and knowing the essence and foundation of Christianity,
The reason why I said that It has everything to do with it, is because it does. Understanding and knowing the essence and foundation of Christianity, and knowing the difference from it and other religions, is knowing and understanding that regardless of a people that came out of Abraham, if they believe in a message other than who Abraham worshipped (which was God, not allah) you would understand that the Muslim faith and Christianity are two completely opposite messages. We do not believe in the same God. We do not worship the same God. They only acknowledge Jesus as a prophet. Not the Savior of the world. Whether you think it's pretentious or not, it's simply knowing the truth.
Let just say this...I do not think you're a moron but I do think you're just ignoring everything I said and now you're starting to get to the point of speaking about God being your savior and that's cool and all but I wasn't asking all that. I wasn't trying to say those religions are exactly the same, I'm just saying they have similar characteristics and no matter what you say, that doesn't change the fact that they are Abrahamic Religions, they still are connected to one another. Allah=God.
Yes, we know that there are tons of other religions (nobody denied that). But no other religion tries to dictate lives in America like Christianity.
Let me see if I've got this straight... so you are saying that Christians are dictating our lives in America??? Well, sounds to me that you would have to accuse our Founding Fathers, who wrote the U.S. Constitution, The Bills of Rights, etc. of doing the same thing. I don't think so! Read some their thoughts about Almighty God:
GEORGE WASHINGTON
1st U.S. President
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
JOHN ADAMS
2nd U.S. President and Signer of "THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE"
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in CONSCIENCE, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward ALMIGHTY GOD.. What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would that region be."
--"Diary and Autobiography of JOHN ADAMS," Vol. III, p. 9.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of CHRISTIANITY. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of CHRISTIANITY are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn ACTS OF devotion to GOD ALMIGHTY. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--JOHN ADAMS wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.
THOMAS JEFFERSON
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of "THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE"
"GOD who gave us life, gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of GOD? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that GOD is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! THE ALMIGHTY has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.
"I am a real CHRISTIAN – that is to say, a Disciple of the doctrines of JESUS CHRIST."--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
JOHN HANCOCK
1st Signer of "THE Declaration of Independence"
"Resistance to tyranny becomes the CHRISTIAN and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on GOD, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." --History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
Signer of "The Declaration of Independence" and "The Unites States Constitution"
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one GOD, The CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.
"That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other children. That the SOUL of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all SOUND Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
"As to JESUS OF NAZARETH, my opinion of Whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion, as He left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to His Divinity; though it is a question, I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making His doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any peculiar marks of His displeasure." --BENJAMIN FRANKLIN wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of YALE UNIVERSITY on March 9, 1790."
__________________
"Because God is Spirit, so those who worship HIM must worship in Spirit and in Truth.”
John 4:24
Let me see if I've got this straight... so you are saying that Christians are dictating our lives in America??? Well, sounds to me that you would have to accuse our Founding Fathers, who wrote the U.S. Constitution, The Bills of Rights, etc. of doing the same thing. I don't think so! Read some their thoughts about Almighty God:
GEORGE WASHINGTON
1st U.S. President
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
JOHN ADAMS
2nd U.S. President and Signer of "THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE"
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in CONSCIENCE, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward ALMIGHTY GOD.. What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would that region be."
--"Diary and Autobiography of JOHN ADAMS," Vol. III, p. 9.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of CHRISTIANITY. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of CHRISTIANITY are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn ACTS OF devotion to GOD ALMIGHTY. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--JOHN ADAMS wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.
THOMAS JEFFERSON
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of "THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE"
"GOD who gave us life, gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of GOD? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that GOD is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! THE ALMIGHTY has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.
"I am a real CHRISTIAN – that is to say, a Disciple of the doctrines of JESUS CHRIST."--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
JOHN HANCOCK
1st Signer of "THE Declaration of Independence"
"Resistance to tyranny becomes the CHRISTIAN and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on GOD, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." --History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
Signer of "The Declaration of Independence" and "The Unites States Constitution"
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one GOD, The CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.
"That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other children. That the SOUL of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all SOUND Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.
"As to JESUS OF NAZARETH, my opinion of Whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion, as He left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to His Divinity; though it is a question, I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making His doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any peculiar marks of His displeasure." --BENJAMIN FRANKLIN wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of YALE UNIVERSITY on March 9, 1790."
You do realize that our consitiution and bill of rights are were written using the magna carta and certain aspects of British common law.... Oh, BTW... A good percentage of those you quoted above we're diests (and don't give any credit to the bible, to suggest anything different is your own personal historical revision and nothing more) that last quote from Franklin even talks about his doubts in your god.
These are the same founding fathers that also realized that even though you and everyone else might believe in a god, your god shouldn't hold any control over the lives of any non-believers, mainly because religion is a matter of faith not facts.
Last edited by Chris1761; 04-15-2012 at 12:06 PM..
You do realize that our consitiution and bill of rights are were written using the magna carta and certain aspects of British common law.... Oh, BTW... A good percentage of those you quoted above we're diests (and don't give any credit to the bible, to suggest anything different is your own personal historical revision and nothing more) that last quote from Franklin even talks about his doubts in your god.
These are the same founding fathers that also realized that even though you and everyone else might believe in a god, your god shouldn't hold any control over the lives of any non-believers, mainly because religion is a matter of faith not facts.
These were FREE-THINKING GOD-FEARING Leaders who knew that they were not mandating a State Religion. They would roll-over in their graves if they saw how the Judeo/Christian doctrines were being attacked by people who just got to this country and NOW want to change our beliefs to suit their gods. But our American Founding Fathers understood what they were doing. They were NOT dictating (and neither are we of the Judeo/Christian Faith) anyone else to follow. Unlike England at that time, our American Constitution guarantees EVERY citizen the RIGHT to serve the God they ascribe to, even atheists:
The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
"The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-"
Now, I'm saying that no government but the Kingdom of God can SAVE YOUR SOUL!
__________________
"Because God is Spirit, so those who worship HIM must worship in Spirit and in Truth.”
John 4:24
Location: I freely label myself a heretic, an infidel & a heathen w/out fear because, like the religions they are derived from, those words have absolutely no substance.
Posts: 1,311
Re: Tons of Other Religions.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongotango
These were FREE-THINKING GOD-FEARING Leaders who knew that they were not mandating a State Religion. They would roll-over in their graves if they saw how the Judeo/Christian doctrines were being attacked by people who just got to this country and NOW want to change our beliefs to suit their gods. But our American Founding Fathers understood what they were doing. They were NOT dictating (and neither are we of the Judeo/Christian Faith) anyone else to follow. Unlike England at that time, our American Constitution guarantees EVERY citizen the RIGHT to serve the God they ascribe to, even atheists:
The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
"The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-"
Now, I'm saying that no government but the Kingdom of God can SAVE YOUR SOUL!
the declaration of independence holds no weight of law...you are mixing it up with the constitution...
the declaration of independence holds no weight of law...you are mixing it up with the constitution...
The Declaration of Independence has BEEN and is TODAY a model that has inspired work for the rights of all people throughout the world. It is the BANNER of moral STANDARD to which the United States has pointed a way for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness in a democracy for all people every where. Why else would so many people risk their lives to come here?
It is the the foundational political and philosophical standard of Government. It is a statement of principles through which the United States Constitution should be interpreted even to the Supreme Court.
And THIS is why God has BLESSED AMERICA: We have NOT been ashamed to acknowledge the Soveignty of Almighty God in His Providence over our country.
__________________
"Because God is Spirit, so those who worship HIM must worship in Spirit and in Truth.”
John 4:24
Location: I freely label myself a heretic, an infidel & a heathen w/out fear because, like the religions they are derived from, those words have absolutely no substance.
Posts: 1,311
Re: Tons of Other Religions.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongotango
The Declaration of Independence has BEEN and is TODAY a model that has inspired work for the rights of all people throughout the world. It is the BANNER of moral STANDARD to which the United States has pointed a way for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness in a democracy for all people every where. Why else would so many people risk their lives to come here?
It is the the foundational political and philosophical standard of Government. It is a statement of principles through which the United States Constitution should be interpreted even to the Supreme Court.
And THIS is why God has BLESSED AMERICA: We have NOT been ashamed to acknowledge the Soveignty of Almighty God in His Providence over our country.
The Declaration of Independence has inspired work for the rights of all people throughout the world. It is the BANNER of moral STANDARD to which the United States has pointed a way for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness in a democracy for all people every where Tell that foolishness to the Indians that had genocide commited against them,the black slaves that had 400 years of slavery,the countries that the U.S has invaded and started wars with (Viet Nam,Iraq,Afghanistan ),the japanese americans put in internment camps!! Moral standard my blackass!!
You do realize that our consitiution and bill of rights are were written using the magna carta and certain aspects of British common law.... Oh, BTW... A good percentage of those you quoted above we're diests (and don't give any credit to the bible, to suggest anything different is your own personal historical revision and nothing more) that last quote from Franklin even talks about his doubts in your god.
These are the same founding fathers that also realized that even though you and everyone else might believe in a god, your god shouldn't hold any control over the lives of any non-believers, mainly because religion is a matter of faith not facts.
Of course, I saw what Benjamin Franklin said. I WANTED you to see what He said. No where does he accuse [as you atheists today are so vehemently campaigning for] Christians of forcing their beliefs on others who did not believe as they did. Do you SEE the difference in how INTELLIGENT God-Fearing people discussion their beliefs? Not going to the Bible and 'cherry picking' one verse to prove that Almighty God is an ogre??? He calmly discussed his doubts in a way that left room for God Almighty to show him what he was not sure about. But he didn't call out the vigilantes of atheists like you do...really Benjamin Franklin acknowledged God's Divinity in that letter. He was WISE to not DISMISS God or DISRESPECT ALMIGHTY GOD as you have ... I'm just saying ... read and learn... listen to THESE men ... they were NOT IGNORANT men, they were LEADERS, SCHOLARS, SOLDIERS, LAWYERS, INVENTORS, SCIENTISTS, GOD-FEARING people and they were NOT wimps!
__________________
"Because God is Spirit, so those who worship HIM must worship in Spirit and in Truth.”
John 4:24
The Declaration of Independence has inspired work for the rights of all people throughout the world. It is the BANNER of moral STANDARD to which the United States has pointed a way for Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness in a democracy for all people every where Tell that foolishness to the Indians that had genocide commited against them,the black slaves that had 400 years of slavery,the countries that the U.S has invaded and started wars with (Viet Nam,Iraq,Afghanistan ),the japanese americans put in internment camps!! Moral standard my blackass!!
Tell us old hairy one full of knowledge and bull s###.Why don't you leave my country if it's not suitable to and your family, that is if you have a family. You haven't done much except to expose your inability to function with adults. I will gladly pay to ship your black ass back to Africa if that would put a smile on your ugly face
These were FREE-THINKING GOD-FEARING Leaders who knew that they were not mandating a State Religion. They would roll-over in their graves if they saw how the Judeo/Christian doctrines were being attacked by people who just got to this country and NOW want to change our beliefs to suit their gods. But our American Founding Fathers understood what they were doing. They were NOT dictating (and neither are we of the Judeo/Christian Faith) anyone else to follow. Unlike England at that time, our American Constitution guarantees EVERY citizen the RIGHT to serve the God they ascribe to, even atheists:
The Declaration of Independence: A Transcription
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
"The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.-"
Now, I'm saying that no government but the Kingdom of God can SAVE YOUR SOUL!
ALTER2EGO -to- BONGOTANGO:
You do realize that--from the viewpoint of the "founding fathers"--the statement: "all men are created equal" and everything elsein the Declaration of Independence applied only to Caucasians; do you not? At the time of the above writing, blacks were treated worse than farm animals. They were branded and sold on the auction block, flogged within inches of their lives, slave girls as young as age 12 were routinely raped and impregnated by white "Christians," and the genocide of Native Americans (in order to steal their land) was the rule of the day. In other words, the "founding fathers" and the people claiming they were Christians back then were the epitomy of hypocrisy. And I'm saying this as a Christian.
__________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
You do realize that--from the viewpoint of the "founding fathers"--the statement: "all men are created equal" and everything elsein the Declaration of Independence applied only to Caucasians; do you not? At the time of the above writing, blacks were treated worse than farm animals. They were branded and sold on the auction block, flogged within inches of their lives, slave girls as young as age 12 were routinely raped and impregnated by white "Christians," and the genocide of Native Americans (in order to steal their land) was the rule of the day. In other words, the "founding fathers" and the people claiming they were Christians back then were the epitomy of hypocrisy. And I'm saying this as a Christian.
so, so very true. most people like to hide truth, why is that i wonder?
In the name god many people in this world have died and the truth be known the Lutherns in Germany ignored the screams of Jews and as a matter of fact if a train loaded with prisoners pasted a church on sunday the congregation would break out singing to cover the cry's coming from the trains. This a fact of history. We must remember one thing, this is mans reglious beliefs not God's commandments
so, so very true. most people like to hide truth, why is that i wonder?
In the name god many people in this world have died and the truth be known the Lutherns in Germany ignored the screams of Jews and as a matter of fact if a train loaded with prisoners pasted a church on sunday the congregation would break out singing to cover the cry's coming from the trains. This a fact of history. We must remember one thing, this is mans reglious beliefs not God's commandments
ALTER2EGO -to- I LIKE IT LIKE THAT:
You and I are both familiar with the scripture at Matthew chapter 7, because we have both taken turns quoting it on this forum in different threads:
"{15} Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. {16} BY THEIR FRUITS [meaning their actions] YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? {17} Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. {20} Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." (Matthew 7: 15-17, 20)
We have a duty as Christians to distinguish ourselves from those who would hide under the flag of Christianity, while committing human rights violations. When it comes right down to it, anybody can claim they are are a Christian. The proof is in the pudding.
__________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Let just say this...I do not think you're a moron but I do think you're just ignoring everything I said and now you're starting to get to the point of speaking about God being your savior and that's cool and all but I wasn't asking all that. I wasn't trying to say those religions are exactly the same, I'm just saying they have similar characteristics and no matter what you say, that doesn't change the fact that they are Abrahamic Religions, they still are connected to one another. Allah=God.
You and I are both familiar with the scripture at Matthew chapter 7, because we have both taken turns quoting it on this forum in different threads:
"{15} Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. {16} BY THEIR FRUITS [meaning their actions] YOU WILL RECOGNIZE THEM. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? {17} Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. {20} Really, then, by their fruits you will recognize those men." (Matthew 7: 15-17, 20)
We have a duty as Christians to distinguish ourselves from those who would hide under the flag of Christianity, while committing human rights violations. When it comes right down to it, anybody can claim they are are a Christian. The proof is in the pudding.
Dang!! I had to double check to make sure i didn't write that post.The very reason I call my self a follower of the "way" is because of the lack of obedience in the church of today. Yeshua [Jesus] our Messiah said in John 14:5-6
5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
My prayer is that of Moses as he said in Ex 33:13
Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight.
Linear Mode
