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Are You Agnostic?

SShorty_2010

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IF YOU are an agnostic, you come somewhere between an atheist and a theist. The atheist is convinced that God does not exist, while the theist has a firm belief that God does exist and that he is involved in human affairs.

The agnostic does not feel that there is enough evidence to say that God does or does not exist. Rather, he reserves judgment or says that if God does exist he is unknown and unknowable.

Do you have friends who are agnostics? Or are you an agnostic yourself? If so, why? Perhaps you feel that agnosticism is the most reasonable position to take in this rationalist 21st century. If that is the case, we invite you to consider the words of certain men who have helped to shape the thinking of people in this century and see what they believed about God, and why. It may help you to understand a little better the reasons for your own beliefs.
 

amapola azul.

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IF YOU are an agnostic, you come somewhere between an atheist and a theist. The atheist is convinced that God does not exist, while the theist has a firm belief that God does exist and that he is involved in human affairs.

The agnostic does not feel that there is enough evidence to say that God does or does not exist. Rather, he reserves judgment or says that if God does exist he is unknown and unknowable.

Do you have friends who are agnostics? Or are you an agnostic yourself? If so, why? Perhaps you feel that agnosticism is the most reasonable position to take in this rationalist 21st century. If that is the case, we invite you to consider the words of certain men who have helped to shape the thinking of people in this century and see what they believed about God, and why. It may help you to understand a little better the reasons for your own beliefs.
Take a wild guess.
 

SShorty_2010

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Because of the Churches


The term “agnostic” (from the Greek word agnostos, “unknown”) was coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who also helped to popularize the Darwinian theory of evolution. Huxley noted that the churches claimed to have a special gnosis (knowledge) about God and the origin of things. He gave one reason why he could not accept this gnosis, and hence was an agnostic:



“If we could only see, in one view, the torrents of hypocrisy and cruelty, the lies, the slaughter, the violations of every obligation of humanity, which have flowed from this source [the churches] along the course of the history of Christian nations, our worst imaginations of Hell would pale beside the vision.”



Doubtless Huxley’s faith in the existence of God was shaken by his acceptance of the theory of evolution. Nevertheless, his faith was further shaken by the conduct of those who should have been in a position to help him, the churches. Their record through the centuries was no recommendation for belief in God.




Socialist Harold Laski, political theorist and educator, wrote in a similar vein. “I was brought up in an orthodox Jewish household; but I cannot even remember a period in which either ritual or dogma had meaning for me,” he confessed. Why? He explained: “Both in England and America I have never been able to see in any of the organized churches a faith in its principles sufficient to make it do serious battle for justice.”



Again, he said: “I cannot see, in the historic process, that the churches have been other than the enemies of reason in thought and of justice in social arrangements.”



Has the conduct of the churches caused you, too, to doubt the existence of God? It is true, their hypocrisy and wrong conduct are a matter of historical record. Note, however, that the Bible, the foremost source of information about God, foretold the rise of just such a perversion of the Christian faith: “They will preserve all the outward form of religion, although they have long been strangers to its meaning.”—2 Timothy 3:5, Knox.



In fact, the shortcomings of established religion are no reason to conclude that God does not exist. If a sick person has been cheated by a quack doctor, he should not thus conclude that no cure is possible. Rather, he should look around for a genuine doctor. Similarly, the fact that the established churches have turned many people away from God does not mean that God cannot be found. It merely means that you have to look somewhere else for him.

 

presidentsjd

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If you're asking questions you might as well be an atheist.

You already don't have full faith.

Anything else and you're just lying to yourself.

I don't need you "on my side" i'm just throwing that out there.

If you're agnostic enough to be on the border you might as well go all the way.
 

Sazzie

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Yes I do call myself an agnostic. I don't believe in god, I guess technically I am a agnostic-atheist if I have to be specific. I'm not a religious person and never was. I hope this thread doesn't derail into a bunch of arguing or something.
 

SShorty_2010

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Unknowable
or Unknown?

Some say that Huxley based his word “agnostic” on a word that appears in the Bible. According to the record in the Bible book of Acts, the apostle Paul when preaching to the Athenians reminded them of an altar in Athens inscribed “To an Unknown [Agnosto in Greek] God.” (Acts 17:23) Was Paul saying that this God, unknown to the wise men of Athens, was unknowable? Far from it. In fact, he went on to explain to the Athenians how they could come to know him.
Today, too, although God is unknown to many, he is not unknowable. The Bible indicates one way that we can learn something about him: “His invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made.” (Romans 1:20) The comments of those whose profession it is to study “the things made” support this statement.

Albert Einstein, the foremost scientific theorist of the 20th century, did not believe in the God of the Bible. Nevertheless, his researches into the nature of the universe inspired in him a sense of wonder that came close to acknowledging the existence of God.
In his book Out of My Later Years, Einstein discusses the experience of learning about the underlying unity of nature. He then said: “Whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence.” He went on: “By way of the understanding he achieves a far-reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind towards the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to man.”

It is not a long step from acknowledging the “rationality made manifest in existence,” and “the grandeur of reason incarnate in existence,” to accepting that behind it all there must be a great Reasoner or Source of rationality. One who made that step was A. R. Wallace, contemporary with Darwin and promoter of the evolution theory and the doctrine of survival of the fittest.

Although he firmly believed in man’s descent from the beasts, Wallace saw something in man that proved to him that Someone higher than man must exist. That “something” was man’s high sense of morality and his intellectual potential.

“I cannot impute this in any way to ‘survival of the fittest,’” he wrote. Rather, he maintained, these qualities “afford us the surest proof that there are other and higher existences than ourselves, from whom these qualities may have been derived, and towards whom we may be ever tending.”

The researches of Oxford University mathematics professor E. A. Milne strongly convinced him that God exists. Modern science shows with increasing clarity the complexity and beauty of the laws governing the universe. Milne felt that we have to accept the existence of God to explain both where matter came from and who originated the laws of nature that control that matter. “If there is a mystery about the creation of matter,” he maintained, “there would be a still greater mystery about the creation of arbitrary laws to govern it.”

Hence, said mathematical physicist Milne, “Though I have had my periods of agnosticism, I have always recovered from them. I do most fervently believe that this universe was created by Almighty God.”
 

NegativeNancy

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There is no way to prove that god exists and there is no way to prove that he doesn't. To me to say that you KNOW is ridiculous.
 

Anacaona Taino

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What's it called when you believe everyone needs something to hold onto to get through the day regardless of what it is faith-wise???
 

Ladydarkside

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I'm deist

Organized Religion isn't my cup of tea, been there done that

Atheism isn't my cup of tea either, so a explosion occured and it magically created a sun, moon, ozone, trees, and a variety of animals/human beings? idk, the complexity of life doesn't seem like a coincidence so I do believe in a higher power of some kind....

I mesh well with agnostics though, I can definitely relate to them a little in terms of belief.
 

twinology

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I believe that God does exist, and I will keep saying this OP. I clash with alot of christians because I don't agree with some of the things that they say and do. I really dont' need anyone to tell me what to believe in. I know God loves me and everyone else and that's what i'm sticking too.
 

RavishMeRed

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I am. Religion has always sounded like some madeup storyline in a movie to me. However I do believe that something is responsible for us being here...... could be A God, could be multiple Gods, or hell even Aliens lol. Who really knows? Nobody on this planet.
 

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I'm not convinced either way but I'm open, I have zero tolerance for dogma though. The only thing I'm confident of is that nobody has the answer to whether or not there's a god/gods and what their involvement or lack of in humanity is.
 

LuvMJ1978

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I am a christian, but have a friend of 25+ yrs who is an agnostic.
 

TheTicket

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How is an agnostic somewhere between one who believes in God & one who doesn't? There's middle ground there? :pconfused:
 

SShorty_2010

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How is an agnostic somewhere between one who believes in God & one who doesn't? There's middle ground there? :pconfused:

You shouldn't really be confused...

the answer was nicely explained in the very first post lol. I suggest you re-read
 

SShorty_2010

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The
Plight of an Agnostic

It has been noted that man by nature has an instinctive need to worship. Those who hold the position of agnostics or atheists may find something lacking if they consider their position closely—rather like a child who is brought up in an orphanage and who feels a sense of loss at never having known his parents.

Even such a convinced unbeliever as the great mathematician Bertrand Russell admitted late in life: “I am strangely unhappy because the pattern of my life is complicated, because my nature is hopelessly complicated. . . . The centre of me is always and eternally a terrible pain—a curious wild pain—a searching for something beyond what the world contains, something transfigured and infinite—a beatific vision—God—I do not find it, I do not think it is to be found.”

It is to be found, though. Not only do millions of people today strongly believe in God but they know him, trust him, and have a personal relationship with him. They are grateful to science for the deeper insight it has given them into God’s “invisible qualities.” (Romans 1:20) However, they have found their faith deepened even more by studying the book that contains a record of God’s dealings with mankind, the Bible.

The Bible does not build in us a mere credulous belief in God. Rather, it encourages us to develop a proved faith. “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.” (Hebrews 11:1) Belief in the reality—though unseen—of God can be obtained through examining the “things made,” and, especially, by a study of the Bible. If you are an agnostic, we encourage you to examine the evidence again.
 

Dissident

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...Those who hold the position of agnostics or atheists may find something lacking...

If you are an agnostic, we encourage you to examine the evidence again...

Anyone who feels somethimg lacking should seek ways to regain joy and meaning in a closer communion with humanity and our glorious planet and universe.

All should be encouraged to read the sadistic, threatening hate posts by this very same poster saturating our forum, trying to intimidate and bully us. Instead question closely why these beliefs lead tens if not hundreds of millions into similar hate and war.

Society must move past such polarizing and hate-preaching crusades in order to reduce suffering in this world.
 

Adzookov

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I am a Deist. Deism is the knowledge of God based on the application of reason on the designs/laws found throughout Nature. Deism is a natural religion and is not a "revealed" religion. We believe God does not interfere in the affairs of humans. In other words, God created the world and abandoned it.
 

Dissident

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Interesting, Adzookov,

I hardly ever run into this, so I've many questions. Well you're in good company with our founding fathers in the US, who I admire. Did they play any role in your developing this belief? Does modern intelligent design theory play a role in persuading you? What of an afterlife? I guess a deist church doesn't make much sense since I know there's no intercessionary prayer, but I think some go to UU, where I drop in occasionally, as about half of UUs are humanists like me.
 

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I'm an atheist regarding the Biblegod. I'm an agnostic regarding a deistic God.
 

Dissident

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I'm an atheist regarding the Biblegod. I'm an agnostic regarding a deistic God.
Which meaning of agnostic are you using; "undecided" or "it's unknowable/unprovable therefore irrelevant in our lives"?
 

presidentsjd

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I'm an atheist regarding the Biblegod. I'm an agnostic regarding a deistic God.

No offense but that doesn't make any sense.

Your concept of a god is influenced by your experience with religion...what that god can do, its involvement in daily affairs, and the presence of that god is all molded by your experience with a religion...

if you believe in even a form or concept of a particular god, that makes you religious.
 

OTW_

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No offense but that doesn't make any sense.

Your concept of a god is influenced by your experience with religion...what that god can do, its involvement in daily affairs, and the presence of that god is all molded by your experience with a religion...

if you believe in even a form or concept of a particular god, that makes you religious.

Agnosticism doesn't mean I believe in a form of god. See my response to Bo G.

I'm sure the Judeo-Christian God doesn't exist - that makes me an atheist regarding him. I base that on the Bible which makes certain statments and claims about the nature of God. That God doesn't exist.

However if someone believes in a more vauge God, that's what I called a deistic god here, I cannot definitely tell him I'm sure that doesn't exist. Like I cannot definitely say the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. That's why I'm an agnostic regarding a deist god. That doesn't mean I believe in a deist god, just means that I cannot be 100% sure if there isn't "something out there". I'm leaning towards atheism there as well, but the term agnostic expresses that uncertainty, unprovability etc.
 

Dissident

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There is a deeply erroneous assumption underlying many comments here.

Atheism means "without a belief in god(s)". Period.

There is NOTHING in that definition that includes "believing that proof exists of the nonexistence of god(s).

A majority of scientists (including me) consider themselves atheists. Nearly none of us uses that second definition as most consider that contrary to scientific thinking .

But whether you think god(s) are knowable or unprovable is a separate question entirely, and irrelevant to the simple question "do you hold a belief in god(s)." So is how vocal or "militant" one is. If you do you're a theist, if you don't you're an atheist (or nontheist, same thing). You can get into the provability or militancy questions another day.

The second definition was invented by an agreement of :

a) theists looking for a way to discredit atheists, and

b) atheists understandably frightened of the hate and discrimination against them, looking for a different label that will appease the theists, a way to separate themselves from "THOSE" people. Unfortunately appeasement feeds into hate.

Much as I love Sagan, his need for populate acceptance to get his message out perpetuated (b), which has contributed to religious bigotry against atheists.

I don't blame atheists using the "agnostic" label because the oppression is very real, but we're going to need to pull together if we want an end to anti-atheist prejudice.

.
 

OTW_

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I have no problem with calling myself an atheist. In fact most of the time I do, because I'm in a Christian society and in that regard I am an atheist.

If the conversation is about deism or a deistic god that's when I take the position of agnosticism. Which doesn't mean I'm "on the fence" or I am somewhere in the middle between belief and unbelief. It means the "it's unknowable/unprovable therefore irrelevant in our lives" definition in that regard.
 

Dissident

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^^^

Ah, sorry... I know you understand my pricklishness, lol... I have to be in the closet at work and in much of my conservative community , and had to give up political.ambitions because of the prejudice.

Sounds like we agree then that your type of agnosticism is a subset of atheism. I like how you separate agnosticism about theism vs deism... very precise and rational. I tend to just say the nonexistence of any god is unprovable, but if I thought about it more I'd probably come to your way of thinking that we're close to being able to disprove the main supposedly currently active gods. But can't disprove the deists' god who is now inactive. All we can say is that this last kind of god is unnecessary to explain the universe's origin. Did I get that right?
 

OTW_

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^^^

Ah, sorry... I know you understand my pricklishness, lol... I have to be in the closet at work and in much of my conservative community , and had to give up political.ambitions because of the prejudice.

I'm sorry for that. I'm not American so it isn't bad here, but I know how discriminated atheists are in the US. Here in Europe noone cares. The only person I have to be in the closet for is my father (and his wife), who is a fundamentalist Christian. He's sick and tied to bed, so I don't want to upset him by telling him I'm an atheist. We don't live together so this means pretending for about a day in every month or two months when we meet. That's not too bad. Otherwise I can be who I am. My mother is an atheist, her parents, my grandparents are atheists. It's not such a big deal here as in the US. (Except when you have a fundamentalist father.)

I tend to just say the nonexistence of any god is unprovable, but if I thought about it more I'd probably come to your way of thinking that we're close to being able to disprove the main supposedly currently active gods. But can't disprove the deists' god who is now inactive. All we can say is that this last kind of god is unnecessary to explain the universe's origin. Did I get that right?


I think yes, the nonexistence of certain gods can be proven. They are the gods about whom some ancient scripture or a religion makes certain very definite statements. Such as the Judeo-Christian god or the Islamic god etc. Because we have very definite statements about the nature of those gods, which statements serve as a basis for that religion, those statements can be examined and thus proven or debunked. In my eyes Christianity has been debunked. Some try to reconcile evolution with the Bible but they are irreconcilable. If the creation story is just a metaphor then what is original sin? And why do we need Jesus as a saviour if the story of Adam and Eve is just a metaphor? But when I read the creation story in the Bible I'm sure those who wrote it meant it literally, not as a metaphor. Paul in the New Testament certainly meant it literally too. If evolution is true (and the evidence supporting it is huge from several branches of science) then Christianity is debunked. Because with that the very core of it is debunked: there was no Adam and Eve, there was no original sin, so there's no need for a saviour.
Even if Christians won't accept this fact any time soon but if evolution is true then this is the end for Christianity.
Evolution is not the only thing that debunks Christianity though, but it's one example.

But if we talk about a deistic god that god doesn't have ancient scriptures making statements about his nature or actions, so it's a lot more difficult to examine and debunk something we don't really have claims about. That doesn't mean this god exists, though and like you said actually for the first time in history we don't need gods to explain the world around us. That doesn't mean we know everything, there are still question marks, but that's not a good reason to apply the "god of gaps" argument there. People in the past often thought "it must be God" if they couldn't explain something. Then it always turned out there was a natural explanation. I'm sure it's the same with the things we cannot explain now yet.
 

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