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Discussion: Do FPOC ancestors provide measurable economic privilege in their descendants?

AndieZel

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This is related to a question that came up in a recent discussion with my cousin about whether she should take advantage of scholarships/programs that target black first-generation college students.

Our shared maternal line was heavily FPOC until the 1940s, and our shared grandfather, grandmother, great-grandfather and great-great uncles all were college educated -- either during or directly after a time when enslaved people were denied the right to even learn to read and write.

So here's my question -- albeit potentially an unanswerable one -- does having FPOC ancestors translate to measurable economic privilege among modern day Black Americans?

I grew up in a very comfortable household because I had wonderful parents who were educated and able to amass capital. But how much of that is down to their own industriousness, and how much was enabled by their ancestors, who had a head-start on wealth-building and entrepreneurship? They both came from parents who owned their homes, and grandparents who owned significant tracts of land.

I wonder if it all kind of comes out in the wash at this point, or whether where your ancestors were 150 years ago has/is still having a significant impact on where you are today? I was recently reading and wonder if this could be a hidden factor in explaining some of the economic disparities we witness in the African American community today?
 

froggyluv2

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Okay...I'm going to take the plunge and ask:

What are FPOCs?

Wait..I think I get it.

Umm...welll.

My ancestors were educated all the way back to my great great great grandfather on my maternal side.

They all had land. Significant portions.

However, by the same token I know of black families such as ours who do not have the same amount of wealth. I don't believe in luck, I'll just say it's fortuitous events more so than industriousness.

For instance, I've known families where everyone of the family homes was snatched for mere pennies on the dollar by the government as a result of ....omg...what is the name of that program.

Sorry, I'm drinking---it's Friday night.

Imminent domain!

That was a racist thing. Imminent domain only seemed to hit predominately black neighborhoods, rarely white. It was where an area was deemed needed for a public park or roadway, etc. As a result and without the permission of the owners, the government took the land and then as compensation paid the land owners mere pennies on the dollar.

Another way that black wealth was stolen thus rendering the benefit of FPOC and generational wealth null and void is through various race riots and the like. This has happened to one leg of my own family.

Finally, there is the economic truth that in most instances wealth only lasts for a total of three generations. This is further underscored due to the lack of knowledge sharing in the black community, even within so-called educated families.

As a people, one of the unfortunate results of slavery is that we don't like to share our knowledge. We either make the assumption that the next person can easily find it out for themselves OR we believe that struggle is necessary and therefore they should work to find what we already know. I've seen this play out from parent to child as the parent never sits down and explains how they acquired this or that. Neither do they show their children how they run their business or handle their finances. It's like the parents are afraid that if the child knows then they as the parent will somehow lose some measure of control.

I therefore don't believe that for African Americans, it's as cut and dried as having educated and affluent ancestors being the key to generational success. We still live in a profoundly racist society that targets black people. As a result, as a black person it's so easy to lose whatever little you have in very short order.
 
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LaMobilier

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Some of my lines have been able to parlay their status into tangible assets like land which was handed down the generations. Other lines that stayed in Louisiana remained a member of that class of Creole that banded together and looked out for one another. I'm sure they shared resources when in need and made sure everyone stayed employed and was able to purchase their own homes. Some were college educated but most were not.

One of my newly discovered lines actually moved to Cali and started a bank!
 

Surreal

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Don't know. But my paternal ancestors were enslaved and were poor, but my father's generation left the South during the Great Migration and headed up North and out West or to Atlanta for better opportunities. I don't even think all of them went to college cause they were young, sometimes fresh out of high school, when they set out. Perhaps they went later in life, but the family now owns a lot of land, almost everyone owns their own home, were able to put their kids through college- now a lot of the older kids own their own homes, have started their own businesses and careers of their own, etc. They're doing a lot better than my mother's side who came from the same background, but never left the South. Many of them are still stuck in the same cycle of poverty. Take from that what you will. The system, free or not, has never been kind to black people and my ancestors had to go out of our way to find the same opportunities to given whites.
 

201520162017

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One side of my father's family went from being one of largest land owners in the parish to their descendants not being able to afford shoes for the first years of their life. I think it depends on how their family managed that wealth and if their kids and descendants were able to keep it in the family long enough. I have received no tangible benefits from it, neither did my father.
 

AnnDee

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My maternal side had the most prosperous farm in the county according to the 1870 farm census records I reviewed. We still own this land. We don’t sell sh!t to white people and hardly ever to black non relatives because they might. My dad’s grandma is from that same community and grew up orphaned and poor. Overall I would definitely say most of my mom’s side is in a better educational and financial place than most of my dad’s side. On mom’s side the vast majority are college educated and own their own homes. And some are business owners. I think this is due to them being self employed for many generations and being able to build wealth without having to migrate. Then those who did migrate because they hated farming did not have to do so dead broke and without any education. My dad’s maternal side did make gains but more slowly and with more struggle. His dad’s side had land and education but he was estranged from them.

Imminet domain is a big threat. Fortunately I have a cousin who is a judge. She led a successful campaign to block an attempt to run a major highway through our community on the basis it is a historically black owned farming area. I think there might have even been a lawsuit because my family has a history of suing people who f with them even back in Jim Crow. Our community has its own subculture that helps shape our mindset. Even those of us like myself who have never lived there consider ourselves from there and use it as our primary identity. I think if your family has a history of going to college or acheiving certain things then you usually feel expected to do the same and you dont grow up doubting you are capable of attaining such things.
 

GabrieleChristo

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I think so. Watching that Vice documentary about the sharecroppers who were illegally enslaved up until the 1960s shows that the playing ground is most definitely unequal. FPOC were able to save money and purchase land much earlier than those who were enslaved until 1865 (and later - in the Deep South). That probably translated to descendants obtaining more education and more generational wealth. Most AAs who are “old money” typically come from Creole/Mulatto FPOC backgrounds from what I’ve seen.
 

BROWNWOMAN20

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Son and father, the 2nd and 3rd pics. They are New Orleans Mixed Creoles. The first guy is Creole as well.

Some of these Free People Of Color descendants stayed in politics, etc, and they passed the torch down, so the had a head start. Its the same in some other cities.


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Valerie Jarrett's family had political connections, I think since the 1800's, and her family is mulitgenerational mulatto. She has New Orleans roots as well, but even her non New Orleans roots, are mulattos as well, and I believe they had political connections..

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Valerie Jarrett talks about her great-grandfather, Robert Robinson Taylor, after she unveiled the postage stamp at the National Postal Museum Thursday.

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Robert Robinson Taylor was born on June 8, 1868, in Wilmington, North Carolina. His father, Henry Taylor, worked as a carpenter and businessman, born into slavery but freed in 1847 by his father and owner Angus Taylor. His mother, Emily Still, was the daughter of freedmen even prior to the Civil War. He had four brothers and sisters. He studied architecture.

All descend from Free People Of Color.

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His third great Peter G. Morgan (politician) born enslaved, after the American Civil War became a nineteenth-century African-American politician from Virginia. He was of mixed race. As an adult, Morgan made enough money by hiring himself out to purchase his own freedom. Under Virginia law, he subsequently obtained title to the members of his family, reportedly paying a thousand dollars to free his wife

Benjamin Todd Jealous mothers side are multi-generational mulattoes, and that is her second great grandfather. He tested to be only about 18% African, so that is how much mixing went on for his family, but his dad is white. He descend from Free People Of Color, and some his ancestors were in politics. For a time, these people kept their status in their families, and only married mulattoes, or visibly mixed raced people, who's family had power, and some wealth, or was middle class by America's standards. They owned property, and businesses.


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Maynard Jackson Jr. was born in Dallas, Texas, on March 23, 1938. His father, Maynard Jackson, Sr., was a leading figure in the 1930s campaign for black voting rights in Dallas and a founder of Democratic Progressive Voter’s League in 1936. His mother, Irene Dobbs Jackson, was a professor of French at Spelman College who desegregated the Atlanta city library system. His aunt Mattiwilda Dobbs was the first African American to sing at the La Scala Opera in Milan, Italy. When Maynard was seven years old his father, a clergyman, moved the family to Atlanta, Georgia, where he assumed pastorship of the Friendship Baptist Church. Jackson served three terms as mayor in Atlanta. His father is at the bottome. His dad descended from New Orleans Creoles.

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His mother


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His paternal grandfather, John Wesley Dobbs (March 26, 1882 – August 30, 1961), an African-American civic and political leader, was often referred to as unofficial "mayor" of Auburn Avenue in Atlanta, Georgia. His extended family.

Some of these families still have power and privileged til this day, but not like they use to, but in some social circles. Mulattoes were kept in higher positions, but this started with slavery. They got their freedom first, or sometimes typically, and sometimes their white fathers, taught them a trade, so they knew how to start and run a business. A lot of the college educated African Americans were mulattoes, directly, or Multi-generational so, and they looked like these people, or they were quadroons. In many cities, if you look at the year books, it was very clear.
 

BROWNWOMAN20

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Jack and Jill Club Atlanta. Many of their ancestors were free before the Civil War, and had their own communities. They were mulattoes, and this is partially why so many are light skin, caramel, or light brown, or have mixed raced features, even if they are darker brown, not all, but many to most. Some got into the clubs later on, and I hate to say it, but the non mulatto looking African Americans. Most of the free people were mulattoes, and they discriminated against darker African Americans. They kept the wealth by marrying other free people of color. Their ancestors were politicians, doctors, etc, or the first of something in the African American community. These families still exist, where they marry other descendants, but they are not as color struct, but they do try to keep the wealth in the family, education as well. I was friends with some of these people, and a lot of the families are light skin, and tend to marry light skin at times, but not all the times. My friend was so light, she looked almost white, and so did her parents.

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Debutante Ball presented by Jack and Jill of America.

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Danielle Brown

National President

Pretty much the Black Elite of today, and yester years past, and they have money, and many do not know they exist! They have their own social circles, etc.

Many descendants do have privileged, and they network among each other, for jobs, opportunities, etc. Many folks, again, do not know about these wealthy, upper class, African American families, but some do.

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The guy on the far right, descend from some famous African American political family or something.

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Mrs. Dorothy Wright, who was president of the Philadelphia Club at this time, felt that Jack and Jill had reached a point when consideration of organizing these groups into a national organization was indicated.

“The Philadelphia Chapter voted unanimously to call a meeting to bring these groups together into a national body when the formation of such was presented in my program for the year 1945-46. With this support of my chapter and with the encouragement of the clubs established or being formed, invitations were sent to these ten groups for participation in a meeting to be held June 1, 1946, in Philadelphia.”
 
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AnnDee

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I have cousins on my dad’s side who are very into that whole debutant ball, Jack and Jill and Mardi Gras krewe social scene. They are not from New Orleans. They are from Mobile. They spend a lot of money and time on pageantry type stuff. The part of my dad’s side that grew up more poor don’t do this. I’ve gone to a few events but I usually come up with an excuse not to go when they invite me because it bores me to death. I didnt realize many people didn’t know this type of stuff went on. I saw it depicted on Greenleaf when Lynn Whitfield’s granddaughter was rejected for Jack and Jill and then the deb ball scene where the fight broke out.

I don’t think my relatives who are into this are color struck. And they don’t only marry light skin people. But I’m not going to front and be dishonest. A few generations back I have multiple ancestors who were biracial either with white or Native American. And I do have some relatives currently who are the complexion of white people. Nowadays we overwhelmingly go to college because from a young age it’s not presented to us an optional. My grandparents told their kids they had to go college. I always knew I had to go college. That is the attitude of my culture so when I would hear people say BAs don’t value education I’m like what?
 

MrsTresvant

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Maynard Jackson Jr. was born in Dallas, Texas, on March 23, 1938. His father, Maynard Jackson, Sr., was a leading figure in the 1930s campaign for black voting rights in Dallas and a founder of Democratic Progressive Voter’s League in 1936. His father is at the bottome. His dad descended from New Orleans Creoles.

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False. Maynard's paternal grandfather was born in Griffin, GA which is 70 miles south of Atlanta. Every mixed race person in NOLA wasn't Creole...his great-great grandmother was born free in 1844 Mississippi somewhere, how or whom her father was is unknown. She was a well known educator after emancipation IN New Orleans but was not a Creole and may not have even moved in the upper echelon circles as they were not fond of non-Catholics or assisting freed people. Her mother was a slave most likely so they would have shunned her, despite her pale skin. Maynard nor his family have ever claimed Creole descent. They were from 2 generations of Baptist preachers that just happened to be very light.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/90610348/alexander-stephens-jackson

Leland's Grand Old Lady - Mrs. Alice Thornton Morse - CreoleGen

The fact that her daughter married working class Creole men (bricklayers etc) tells me all I need to know. The caste system in NOLA is/was real.

@Bad Streets
@Pressley
 
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GabrieleChristo

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Jack and Jill Club Atlanta. Many of their ancestors were free before the Civil War, and had their own communities. They were mulattoes, and this is partially why so many are light skin, caramel, or light brown, or have mixed raced features, even if they are darker brown, not all, but many to most. Some got into the clubs later on, and I hate to say it, but the non mulatto looking African Americans. Most of the free people were mulattoes, and they discriminated against darker African Americans. They kept the wealth by marrying other free people of color. Their ancestors were politicians, doctors, etc, or the first of something in the African American community. These families still exist, where they marry other descendants, but they are not as color struct, but they do try to keep the wealth in the family, education as well. I was friends with some of these people, and a lot of the families are light skin, and tend to marry light skin at times, but not all the times. My friend was so light, she looked almost white, and so did her parents.

https://*******************/6/5245/5323936462_e2afbce32e.jpg

Debutante Ball presented by Jack and Jill of America.

2010-nationals.jpg


NVP-Danielle-Brown.jpg


Danielle Brown

National President

Pretty much the Black Elite of today, and yester years past, and they have money, and many do not know they exist! They have their own social circles, etc.

Many descendants do have privileged, and they network among each other, for jobs, opportunities, etc. Many folks, again, do not know about these wealthy, upper class, African American families, but some do.

Jack-Jill-Honoree-Ball-2016-Reception.jpg
2012-Debs.jpg
DSC_5334_t620x620_c620x620.JPG


5323936658_d65e36ffa9_b.jpg


The guy on the far right, descend from some famous African American political family or something.

a-history-moment.jpg


Dorothy-Wright-web-235x300.jpg


Mrs. Dorothy Wright, who was president of the Philadelphia Club at this time, felt that Jack and Jill had reached a point when consideration of organizing these groups into a national organization was indicated.

“The Philadelphia Chapter voted unanimously to call a meeting to bring these groups together into a national body when the formation of such was presented in my program for the year 1945-46. With this support of my chapter and with the encouragement of the clubs established or being formed, invitations were sent to these ten groups for participation in a meeting to be held June 1, 1946, in Philadelphia.”

This is interesting. My mother never mentioned it but she may have been in an organization like this when she grew up. She never really discussed it but I do know that she was a debutante and she was "presented" to society when she was a teen. I still have some of her memorabilia. She had more of a Southern upbringing while mine was more Northern.
 

GabrieleChristo

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My ancestors built two towns but they are still very rural places down South that are purely residential. I still plan to visit both of them just to check them out and see if I can get more history on those lines from my distant family members who still live there.
 

GabrieleChristo

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Some of my lines have been able to parlay their status into tangible assets like land which was handed down the generations. Other lines that stayed in Louisiana remained a member of that class of Creole that banded together and looked out for one another. I'm sure they shared resources when in need and made sure everyone stayed employed and was able to purchase their own homes. Some were college educated but most were not.

One of my newly discovered lines actually moved to Cali and started a bank!

Did you ever happen to find out if you were related to French nobility? If anything, I feel that my family went backwards. It seems like hundreds of years ago, they had a lot more assets and it slowly dwindled down to an average existence today. Perhaps more than some families but nothing like what we had hundreds of years ago (hundreds of acres of land and castles in Europe). I only see the continuation of wealth in certain families such as the DuPonts, the Vanderbilts, etc. I do wonder how we lost so much. I think it definitely has to do with being FPOC instead of 100% Europeans who didn't have the same restrictions on them as FPOCs did in those days. The East Coast Natives also lost a lot of land and had to go into hiding as well so that probably also hurt us as well. It appears that the FPOCs who had some measure of protection were the direct descendants of wealthy European landowners who were somehow able to ensure that their families kept their land and inheritances.
 

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No. Laborers, farmers, violinist, pit cleaning business are some of the income generating activities I know my ancestors engaged, but the line I descended from ended up in poverty.

Apparently, my great grandmother squandered her inheritance by marrying an abusive drunk. So my maternal side is middle class or broke, but act bougie and classist like we have money and prestige.
 

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