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GRRM says he considered making the Targaryens Black

Melb4life

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I don't know if this has ever been brought up or discussed here, but I found a very interesting quote from grrm pretty much saying that he considered making the targaryens black. He mentioned he only thought about it in more recent years and It that it would've been a nice twist, but I still found it intriguing.

[R]ight from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional ‘high fantasy’ choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so).


But in recent years, it has occurred to me from time to time that it might have made for an interesting twist if instead I had made the dragonlords of Valyria… and therefore the Targaryens… black. Maybe I could have kept the silver hair too, though… no, that comes too close to ‘dark elf’ territory, but still… if I’d had dark-skinned dragonlords invade and conquer and dominate a largely white Westeros… though that choice would have brought its own perils. The Targaryens have not all been heroic, after all… some of them have been monsters, madmen, so…

Well, it’s all moot. The idea came to me about twenty years too late.

Now, I'm not really a fan of daenerys or the targaryens however, I always thought It would've been more interesting if daenerys had been a black woman, (although that has it's pros and cons) so it's interesting that grrm even considered it at all at one point. It definitely would of counteracted the whole "there are no black people on game of thrones" thing and the "white savior trope".

I don't think the story would of changed at all, but no doubt this would of been very controversial. A white male author writing a black female main character? And considering the messed up things both her character/family does (including incest) and she goes through, it seems better this way. I'm sure most would also prefer her to be as she is on the show, especially seeing how it all ended, but anyways what do you guys think of this? I mean could you imagine dany and the targaryens being black?

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mthrbrd

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Well, it’s all moot. The idea came to me about twenty years too late.

shoulda woulda coulda. this old heffalump should stop telling us about what he “thought” about doing and just give the fans the ending books they deserve before his heart stops.

it’s cheap lip service, just like Rowling with Hermione.
 

County4Life

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We discussed this before! It was very interesting. GRRM isn't the one to write Black characters. Summer Islanders are a hot ass mess. Plus, he just acted a fool at the Hugo Awards.

But to think of a race of incestous dragon riding slavers creating an empire in Essos and then conquering Westoros?

Very interesting and I hope a Black fantasy author does this one day.

The Targs would be bred out very quickly following the book Targaryens model. But if they kept it in the family, it's be very hard to hide Jon Snow unless he looked like Logic, lol.
 

DominaHW

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Yep, there was a thread on this. It makes sense considering how the Targs were seen as strange-looking to the Westerosi and basically brought their current model of civilization to the Westerosi.

I think it was mentioned in the previous thread that this might not have gone over so well considering that:

A) The Targs were incestuous and nuttier than squirrel sh!t

B) The event that set off Robert's Rebellion would have basically been a black man (Rhaegar Targaryen) leaving his wife (Elia Martell, who I guess was Latina in this universe) and half-black children for a white woman (Lyanna Stark) that he felt destined to be with, lol.

Also it would have been cool to see a black chick as a dragonrider and reclaiming her throne. But it would have been her vs her biracial brother and true heir to the throne, which might not have been well-received either.

I also don't think it's entirely believable that a black family would commit incest to that degree. Maybe the whole "keeping it in the family" would have manifested as only mating with other Targs (i.e. blacks), and maybe they could have found a different way to explain the "mad gene" -- like maybe incest did occur at some point and introduced a rogue gene that was passed down through their lineage. I don't know, there are ways it could have worked.
 

Pure Heroine

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So interesting! Black Targaryens would've been soo cool. But as others have said, the incest and madness would've been very problematic.

Plus, I just know plenty of racist white viewers would have made those awful "We wuz Kangs" jokes over the storyline of fallen/deposed black kings and queens : unamused:
 

Melb4life

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Yep, there was a thread on this. It makes sense considering how the Targs were seen as strange-looking to the Westerosi and basically brought their current model of civilization to the Westerosi.

I think it was mentioned in the previous thread that this might not have gone over so well considering that:

A) The Targs were incestuous and nuttier than squirrel sh!t

B) The event that set off Robert's Rebellion would have basically been a black man (Rhaegar Targaryen) leaving his wife (Elia Martell, who I guess was Latina in this universe) and half-black children for a white woman (Lyanna Stark) that he felt destined to be with, lol.

Also it would have been cool to see a black chick as a dragonrider and reclaiming her throne. But it would have been her vs her biracial brother and true heir to the throne, which might not have been well-received either.

I also don't think it's entirely believable that a black family would commit incest to that degree. Maybe the whole "keeping it in the family" would have manifested as only mating with other Targs (i.e. blacks), and maybe they could have found a different way to explain the "mad gene" -- like maybe incest did occur at some point and introduced a rogue gene that was passed down through their lineage. I don't know, there are ways it could have worked.

Yes these are the exact points I also thought about which is why I figured that, yes it would be cool, but it's better how it was on the show. Although GOT is known to be controversial, this would probably be a never ending controversy.
 

Maxine

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It would look cool but no. I don’t want black people being subjected to more hatred. People would go on about him pandering to us.

Just finish A Song of Ice and Fire George.
 

Hi5Perry

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I don't think they should've been Black but he should've worked harder to make the Valyrians a distinct race. Blond/silver hair & purple eyes isn't that distinctive. It's a fantasy world of dragons & giants. Why not give Valyrians a non-human skin color or give them actual powers?
 

PaulAtreides

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Problematic because Targs come from Valyrians who were slave holders. Targs weren't even that important in Valyria.
 

DominaHW

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Yes these are the exact points I also thought about which is why I figured that, yes it would be cool, but it's better how it was on the show. Although GOT is known to be controversial, this would probably be a never ending controversy.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea. I think it would have had a lot of parallels to actual black history tbh. Let's be real, our history isn't all frolicking through the roses until the evil invaders showed up. We probably did some fµcked up sh!t that contributed to our downfall (NOT caused it) similar to how the Targs had self-destructive elements in their own families.

There is a way to make a nuanced GoT world with black Targs, but I'm not sure how well GRRM would have pulled it off considering how he depicted the Sothoryos and the Summer Islanders.
 

Gaou

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It's a cool concept but I wouldn't trust a white man to properly wrote black characters and the mess he said at the hugo awards pretty much confirms it would've been a bad idea
 

NambyPamby

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It's a cool concept but I wouldn't trust a white man to properly wrote black characters and the mess he said at the hugo awards pretty much confirms it would've been a bad idea

I agree. It would’ve been horribly done.

No matter how beautiful they would’ve looked with white hair, I’m giving two thumbs down to a family of black ppl engaging in incest.
 

SolasLaNehn

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It's best that they didn't go that route. Fans already reacted negatively, claiming that "power-mad tyrant" Daenerys "brought savage Dothraki to infiltrate, invade, and destroy civilized Westerosi culture" (catch the obvious undertones and projections there).

Considering how everything turned out in the story, it would have been exponentially worse if Dany and the Targaryens were black.
 

StrangeXdefault

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I've only seen one episode of The Game of Thrones but just going off of your all's comments I am shocked by how pervasive the incest themes are :eek:

And people liked this???
 

Abbie Mills

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I am glad he decided not to. I hate the Targaryens and everything they stood for. They where incestuous(well even more than the other houses), colonizers, and crazy.
 

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I've only seen one episode of The Game of Thrones but just going off of your all's comments I am shocked by how pervasive the incest themes are :eek:

And people liked this???

Despite the sister and brother “relations” :disdain, it’s really a very good book series. The show was really good too despite the last few seasons being trash. I was so emotionally invested I didn’t care that the writing went to sh!t. I recommend it to everyone especially if you are a fantasy book/movie lover.
 

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shoulda woulda coulda. this old heffalump should stop telling us about what he “thought” about doing and just give the fans the ending books they deserve before his heart stops.

it’s cheap lip service, just like Rowling with Hermione.

Thank you!

Those snacks he eatin must really slow him down. Release the book already!
 

County4Life

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I don't think they should've been Black but he should've worked harder to make the Valyrians a distinct race. Blond/silver hair & purple eyes isn't that distinctive. It's a fantasy world of dragons & giants. Why not give Valyrians a non-human skin color or give them actual powers?


He stole their entire look and most of ASOIAF elements from a book called Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. I read the book and most of it could be easily swapped with ASOIAF.

Super pale skin, purple eyes and silver hair makes me think the Valyrians would be downright odd looking. People draw them as beautiful because GRRM calls them that.

There is a line between being inspired and outright stealing. I don't know why he isn't called out more for this. His fanboys act like he's so original. I wonder if he paid Tad Williams off or something.
 

tmc134

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Wow very cool idea definitely would of been controversial. They would of been even more beautiful though if they were that's for sure.

nyane_2_galore_mag.jpg

565ec984c1a99235918b3979f70f5788.jpg
 

County4Life

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I've only seen one episode of The Game of Thrones but just going off of your all's comments I am shocked by how pervasive the incest themes are :eek:

And people liked this???


You ain't seen ish from GRRM about incest!

The first generations of Targs were, whew chile. They were so inbred, it wasn't funny! I read WOIAF because I was interested in the lore.

Oh, no. GRRM decided to go all out with the incest!

Rhaenys and Aegon were brother and sister born from multiple siblings marrying each other for over a century.
Their son Aenys had two sets of his children marry each other.
Jaeherys and Alysanne did nothing but screw and had over twelve kids.
Baelon and Alyssa had three sons. Viserys married his cousin. Daemon married his niece Rhaenyra, who was Viserys daughter.
Their son Viserys II had his two kids Aegon and Naerys marry each other.

Did I mention that Jaeherys and Alysanne's son Aemon married their mama's daughter aka his aunt Jocelyn and had a baby?

Then he had Dany's parents and grandparents all be siblings so she's doubly inbred.

The man is obsessed!
 

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First of all, they took African folklore, etc, and perverted it...
If anybody would be "Black" it would be everybody in the "South" aka that we all know was a metaphor for Africa. They thought they were slick with that, but I surely caught it. White people have never originally lived and come from places where it was abundant, warm, and gorgeous.
 
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BUT HE DIDN'T

It would've looked really good with silver hair and the original purple eyes.
I like some of the photos posted here, but I look at the first one and it gives the most resemblance to Dany
But I also think it would've been a dead giveaway of Jon Snow being a Targaryen.
 
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You ain't seen ish from GRRM about incest!

The first generations of Targs were, whew chile. They were so inbred, it wasn't funny! I read WOIAF because I was interested in the lore.

Oh, no. GRRM decided to go all out with the incest!

Rhaenys and Aegon were brother and sister born from multiple siblings marrying each other for over a century.
Their son Aenys had two sets of his children marry each other.
Jaeherys and Alysanne did nothing but screw and had over twelve kids.
Baelon and Alyssa had three sons. Viserys married his cousin. Daemon married his niece Rhaenyra, who was Viserys daughter.
Their son Viserys II had his two kids Aegon and Naerys marry each other.

Did I mention that Jaeherys and Alysanne's son Aemon married their mama's daughter aka his aunt Jocelyn and had a baby?

Then he had Dany's parents and grandparents all be siblings so she's doubly inbred.

The man is obsessed!
But in the show it's not that prevalent.
If anything, everyone looks down upong Cersei and Jamie.
They sort of let loose with Jon and Dany but it was the fandom that wanted more of incest themes like Sansa and Jon, ETC
 

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It would’ve been cool to see a black family on there. It would’ve been a disaster though. With how the show was, they couldn’t had given them a glossy and happy storyline or ending. And I know how some of us love fake woke think pieces.

They were damned that they didn’t have many black characters on there. They’d have been damned if a black woman was being sold, beaten, attacked, kept as a slave and gone mad by killing thousands. Maybe one day we can get an epic story based on warriors, kings and queens in Africa.
 

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How would the John Snow lineage twist work then? He would have to be visibly biracial so people would easily figure out that he has a Targaryean parent.
 

tmc134

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BUT HE DIDN'T

It would've looked really good with silver hair and the original purple eyes.
I like some of the photos posted here, but I look at the first one and it gives the most resemblance to Dany
But I also think it would've been a dead giveaway of Jon Snow being a Targaryen.

True but they could of casted a white passing biracial to play jon so it wouldn't be automatically obvious.
 

County4Life

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First of all, they took African folklore, etc, and perverted it...
If anybody would be "Black" it would be everybody in the "South" aka that we all know was a metaphor for Africa. They thought they were slick with that, but I surely caught it. White people have never originally lived and come from places where it was abundant, warm, and gorgeous.


Summer Islands was some real fµck sh!t. Chock full of xesual stereotypes about Black people. The fanboys couldn't understand why we weren't happy with that.

Not to mention Sorythos is nothing but colonial racist belief about Africa. I won't get into actual ape men living there. Or the cannibalism.
 

TheRose

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Summer Islands was some real fµck sh!t. Chock full of xesual stereotypes about Black people. The fanboys couldn't understand why we weren't happy with that.

Not to mention Sorythos is nothing but colonial racist belief about Africa. I won't get into actual ape men living there. Or the cannibalism.

Right! Like, that's all he had for Black people, lovemaking and music? I peeped that.
 

RoijaRhaa

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I’m glad he didn’t stay with this idea.
Summer Islands was some real fµck sh!t. Chock full of xesual stereotypes about Black people. The fanboys couldn't understand why we weren't happy with that.

Not to mention Sorythos is nothing but colonial racist belief about Africa. I won't get into actual ape men living there. Or the cannibalism.


I agree with you, their were things were so stereotypical to me. The Summer Islanders high respect PROSTITUTION and one character described the women as wanton. And Sorythos...
 

Hi5Perry

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BUT HE DIDN'T

It would've looked really good with silver hair and the original purple eyes.
I like some of the photos posted here, but I look at the first one and it gives the most resemblance to Dany
But I also think it would've been a dead giveaway of Jon Snow being a Targaryen.

True but they could of casted a white passing biracial to play jon so it wouldn't be automatically obvious.
Not necessarily. Sothoryos & Essos would still have black & brown people. Jon's "mother" Wylla could've been from one of those places so it would explain why he's biracial.

But if GRRM had made the Valyrians a truly distinct race it probably would've been impossible to hide Jon, unless he somehow only inherited Stark physical traits
 

County4Life

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I’m glad he didn’t stay with this idea.



I agree with you, their were things were so stereotypical to me. The Summer Islanders high respect PROSTITUTION and one character described the women as wanton. And Sorythos...

Don't forget the Black Summer Islander mama selling her daughter to half of King's Landing.
 

The Red Woman

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I don't know if this has ever been brought up or discussed here, but I found a very interesting quote from grrm pretty much saying that he considered making the targaryens black. He mentioned he only thought about it in more recent years and It that it would've been a nice twist, but I still found it intriguing.

[R]ight from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional ‘high fantasy’ choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so).


But in recent years, it has occurred to me from time to time that it might have made for an interesting twist if instead I had made the dragonlords of Valyria… and therefore the Targaryens… black. Maybe I could have kept the silver hair too, though… no, that comes too close to ‘dark elf’ territory, but still… if I’d had dark-skinned dragonlords invade and conquer and dominate a largely white Westeros… though that choice would have brought its own perils. The Targaryens have not all been heroic, after all… some of them have been monsters, madmen, so…

Well, it’s all moot. The idea came to me about twenty years too late.

Now, I'm not really a fan of daenerys or the targaryens however, I always thought It would've been more interesting if daenerys had been a black woman, (although that has it's pros and cons) so it's interesting that grrm even considered it at all at one point. It definitely would of counteracted the whole "there are no black people on game of thrones" thing and the "white savior trope".

I don't think the story would of changed at all, but no doubt this would of been very controversial. A white male author writing a black female main character? And considering the messed up things both her character/family does (including incest) and she goes through, it seems better this way. I'm sure most would also prefer her to be as she is on the show, especially seeing how it all ended, but anyways what do you guys think of this? I mean could you imagine dany and the targaryens being black?

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Wow very cool idea definitely would of been controversial. They would of been even more beautiful though if they were that's for sure.

nyane_2_galore_mag.jpg

565ec984c1a99235918b3979f70f5788.jpg

So they'd all have bone straight hair and/or light skin?
 

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