Quantcast

Is AAVE a language or a dialect?

Plantain Queen

General Manager
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Messages
1,356
Reaction score
Reactions
15,559 396 86
18,985
Alleybux
61,629
This post is mostly me thinking out loud but this confuses me. In most cases, people address it as a dialect but I honestly think it's a language and I'm sure most experienced linguists would agree.

I did a course in Communication Studies back in form 6 in Trinidad and I found out that each Caribbean country's Creole/ Patois is a language with it's own set of rules. That's when I realised that AAVE would also be a language and not just a dialect, since it's meant to be spoken a certain way.

I notice that when a white person attempts to use AAVE, it just sounds wrong because they aren't aware of the rules and therefore don't know how to speak it correctly.

I just want the Creole languages of the African diaspora to have the same respect as other languages.
 

SkylarGrey

Notice me senpai!
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
8,850
Reaction score
Reactions
98,675 4,617 2,205
105,424
Alleybux
52,595
ethnolect. AA are an ethnicity. The ethnolect varies from AA's from city to city, even suburb to suburb but shared amongst the ethnicity and even non-AA Blacks that migrate due to proximity.
 

Plantain Queen

General Manager
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Messages
1,356
Reaction score
Reactions
15,559 396 86
18,985
Alleybux
61,629
ethnolect. AA are an ethnicity. The ethnolect varies from AA's from city to city, even suburb to suburb but shared amongst the ethnicity and even non-AA Blacks that migrate due to proximity.

I've never heard the term ethnolect before. Learn something new everyday
 

LeSigh

General Manager
Joined
Jun 5, 2018
Messages
1,698
Reaction score
Reactions
12,647 378 180
14,566
Alleybux
49,285
I'm on the fence. On the one hand you definitely have to learn how to speak with, as I jokingly refer to, a "blaccent," it's not standard English, ppl that arent black but grow up around a lot of blk ppl definitely sound natural when they talk using AAVE. Lil Dicky is Jewish from Philly and sounds natural. But going as far to call it a language idk. I do think patois is closer to a language than aave mainly b/c it's not easily adopted into standard English like aave. So I say dialect.
 

dopamine

wandascakes
BANNED
Joined
Mar 9, 2020
Messages
5,036
Reaction score
Reactions
30,647 1,161 672
38,510
Alleybux
0
This post is mostly me thinking out loud but this confuses me. In most cases, people address it as a dialect but I honestly think it's a language and I'm sure most experienced linguists would agree.

I did a course in Communication Studies back in form 6 in Trinidad and I found out that each Caribbean country's Creole/ Patois is a language with it's own set of rules. That's when I realised that AAVE would also be a language and not just a dialect, since it's meant to be spoken a certain way.

I notice that when a white person attempts to use AAVE, it just sounds wrong because they aren't aware of the rules and therefore don't know how to speak it correctly.

I just want the Creole languages of the African diaspora to have the same respect as other languages.

"African-American Vernacular English (AAVE) may be considered a dialect, ethnolect or sociolect." - wikipedia for all my scholarly hozz
 

purplegyal

c a r a m e l
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Messages
5,919
Reaction score
Reactions
14,722 146 247
19,834
Alleybux
175
Dialect. It's basically a different version of English, just primarily used among African Americans.

I feel like the main difference that I see between a language and a dialect is that a dialect is based off of another language, while a language is entirely separate and on its own.

As a Caribbean, I consider most Caribbean 'languages' as dialects. They say they're creole languages, but I consider them to be dialects as we still use Standard English/French/Spanish but develop our own vernacular based off of that language.
 

SuccessfullyMe

Team Owner
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
23,281
Reaction score
Reactions
238,527 6,659 3,637
249,487
Alleybux
66,253
It's a language I took a course regarding AAVE linguistics in college.

It's a dialect. AAVE isn't even the same across the US ... hell in the same states it's different.

We don't use bet in NYC, but it's common in Texas.

A language is typically can be understood everywhere. I cannot understand the AAVE of someone in the deep south like Mississippi or Louisiana. We may be black and speak English, but our AAVE is not the same.
 

DarkBrandon

CHEVERLY OWES ME $100
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
16,978
Reaction score
Reactions
93,509 1,070 352
106,562
Alleybux
502,408
Ethnolect/ dialect. It's English but with distinctive markers. You could probably go to any corner of this country and find black people who use AAVE in the same way. I'd say it's more of an ethnolect than a dialect. Example: Listen to white southerners speak. Then listen to their black next door neighbor. They could have gone to the same school and lived there their entire lives, but speak different.

I studied sociolinguistics a while back (it's directly related to my career field now without giving too many details). AAVE (or even the development of language in general) really is fascinating to read about in terms of its origins and how it's changed over time.
 

kris_517

Team Owner
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
51,940
Reaction score
Reactions
368,819 5,350 1,216
414,779
Alleybux
1,029,045
It's a dialect. AAVE isn't even the same across the US ... hell in the same states it's different.

We don't use bet in NYC, but it's common in Texas.

A language is typically can be understood everywhere. I cannot understand the AAVE of someone in the deep south like Mississippi or Louisiana. We may be black and speak English, but our AAVE is not



dialect-
  1. a particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group.
It's defined as both in linguistic circles but I get that people are try to diminish by label as one over the other.
 
Last edited:

TheRose

MVP
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
964
Reaction score
Reactions
6,643 70 18
8,036
Alleybux
4,356
This post is mostly me thinking out loud but this confuses me. In most cases, people address it as a dialect but I honestly think it's a language and I'm sure most experienced linguists would agree.

I did a course in Communication Studies back in form 6 in Trinidad and I found out that each Caribbean country's Creole/ Patois is a language with it's own set of rules. That's when I realised that AAVE would also be a language and not just a dialect, since it's meant to be spoken a certain way.

I notice that when a white person attempts to use AAVE, it just sounds wrong because they aren't aware of the rules and therefore don't know how to speak it correctly.

I just want the Creole languages of the African diaspora to have the same respect as other languages.

Yes, it’s a language spoken with many dialects who have their own subset of words and idioms. A girl from the Uk tried to argue me down saying that AAV is not real. I’m like girl BYE, of course it is.
 

wussupdoc

General Manager
Joined
Jun 1, 2015
Messages
1,177
Reaction score
Reactions
6,166 117 4
7,813
Alleybux
19,120
I was gonna say it's whatever Creole and Patois are, but after reading everyone else's posts I think AAVE is a dialect
 

moxyland

cracked out busted down washed up guttercat
Joined
Aug 28, 2017
Messages
3,185
Reaction score
Reactions
26,973 947 125
32,628
Alleybux
24,502
generally, the difference between languages and dialects is whether people can understand each other (called "mutual intelligibility"). Spanish and English are not mutually intelligible, and are thus different languages. some languages are similar, like Spanish and Portuguese, and originally both started as dialects of Latin. time and political interests cause these dialects of Latin to diverge and change to become different enough to be considered different languages. another example is Scandinavian languages, they're actually kind of mutually intelligible but are considered different languages due to national borders and politics. a lot of Slavic languages are super mutually intelligible but their political history is a mess and they will cuss you out if you tried to say the languages are basically the same.

another thing is standardization of writing. a language has rules for writing it, dialects are largely spoken.

AAVE is largely considered a dialect rather than a language. It has the potential to be elevated to the level of language, though.

creole and patois are pidgin languages, meaning they grew from the mixing of two or more separate languages. these are linguistically considered a different category from what we know as traditional language and from dialects/ethnolects. fun fact, the International Space Station has a pidgin language made from the mixing of English, Chinese, and Russian (main nationalities of astronauts who live and work there).
 

DarkBrandon

CHEVERLY OWES ME $100
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
16,978
Reaction score
Reactions
93,509 1,070 352
106,562
Alleybux
502,408
I was gonna say it's whatever Creole and Patois are, but after reading everyone else's posts I think AAVE is a dialect

One major distinction between language an dialect: Yes, both have a set of governing rules, but people who share a language can read it and understand it regardless of region, social group, etc (not including those who actually can't read, period, because that's a different subject). Dialects/ ethnolects aren't written, per se, which is the case with AAVE in general.

I know, we see people write with what appears to be AAVE all the time, but they can still read, use, and follow most of the rules of English.

I guess depending on how you operationally define language and dialect, you could go either way with it.
 

DarkBrandon

CHEVERLY OWES ME $100
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
16,978
Reaction score
Reactions
93,509 1,070 352
106,562
Alleybux
502,408
generally, the difference between languages and dialects is whether people can understand each other (called "mutual intelligibility"). Spanish and English are not mutually intelligible, and are thus different languages. some languages are similar, like Spanish and Portuguese, and originally both started as dialects of Latin. time and political interests cause these dialects of Latin to diverge and change to become different enough to be considered different languages. another example is Scandinavian languages, they're actually kind of mutually intelligible but are considered different languages due to national borders and politics. a lot of Slavic languages are super mutually intelligible but their political history is a mess and they will cuss you out if you tried to say the languages are basically the same.

another thing is standardization of writing. a language has rules for writing it, dialects are largely spoken.

AAVE is largely considered a dialect rather than a language. It has the potential to be elevated to the level of language, though.

creole and patois are pidgin languages, meaning they grew from the mixing of two or more separate languages. these are linguistically considered a different category from what we know as traditional language and from dialects/ethnolects. fun fact, the International Space Station has a pidgin language made from the mixing of English, Chinese, and Russian (main nationalities of astronauts who live and work there).

So this is the fancy (and accurate) way of explaining what I was trying to get to. lol

In my defense, I've been day drinking a little lmfao
 

AgnesGooch

Cool With You
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
65,580
Reaction score
Reactions
640,877 19,022 12,528
655,270
Alleybux
170,505
Its not a separate language. Its a dialect. Its too close to standard English to be a separate English but some people think that the earliest slaves (late 1600s to 1700s)probably spoke a creole English african hybrid language that merged with standard English after many decades.
 

moxyland

cracked out busted down washed up guttercat
Joined
Aug 28, 2017
Messages
3,185
Reaction score
Reactions
26,973 947 125
32,628
Alleybux
24,502
So this is the fancy (and accurate) way of explaining what I was trying to get to. lol

In my defense, I've been day drinking a little lmfao
the only place I can use my degree is in these miscellaneous internet discussions :LOL::cry:
 

TheRose

MVP
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
964
Reaction score
Reactions
6,643 70 18
8,036
Alleybux
4,356
Its not a separate language. Its a dialect. Its too close to standard English to be a separate English but some people think that the earliest slaves (late 1600s to 1700s)probably spoke a creole English african hybrid language that merged with standard English after many decades.

This is correct. One can speak English but it’s how you speak it that makes it unique. One word may mean five different things in AAV.
 

DarkBrandon

CHEVERLY OWES ME $100
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
16,978
Reaction score
Reactions
93,509 1,070 352
106,562
Alleybux
502,408
the only place I can use my degree is in these miscellaneous internet discussions :LOL::cry:

I wanted to continue linguistics but the VA (who paid for everything in the VR&E program) felt that being an SLP would be more of a money maker. Fast forward, and I kind of hate doing speech and wish I had stayed with linguistics hahaha
 
Last edited:

Surreal

⭐ ⭐ ⭐
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
27,796
Solutions
2
Reaction score
Reactions
241,902 7,371 6,305
246,605
Alleybux
233,069
Dialect. It's basically a different version of English, just primarily used among African Americans.

I feel like the main difference that I see between a language and a dialect is that a dialect is based off of another language, while a language is entirely separate and on its own.

As a Caribbean, I consider most Caribbean 'languages' as dialects. They say they're creole languages, but I consider them to be dialects as we still use Standard English/French/Spanish but develop our own vernacular based off of that language.

But these languages are more than just speaking English, French, or Spanish with an accent. They often combine words and phrases from other languages too like various African and Native American languages. That's why they are creole languages.

I'm an English speaker but I can't understand Patois just like I can't understand Gullah as an African American from MS.

 
Last edited:

PaulAtreides

Team Owner
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
15,789
Reaction score
Reactions
95,982 4,671 2,847
99,153
Alleybux
898,493
generally, the difference between languages and dialects is whether people can understand each other (called "mutual intelligibility"). Spanish and English are not mutually intelligible, and are thus different languages. some languages are similar, like Spanish and Portuguese, and originally both started as dialects of Latin. time and political interests cause these dialects of Latin to diverge and change to become different enough to be considered different languages. another example is Scandinavian languages, they're actually kind of mutually intelligible but are considered different languages due to national borders and politics. a lot of Slavic languages are super mutually intelligible but their political history is a mess and they will cuss you out if you tried to say the languages are basically the same.

another thing is standardization of writing. a language has rules for writing it, dialects are largely spoken.

AAVE is largely considered a dialect rather than a language. It has the potential to be elevated to the level of language, though.

creole and patois are pidgin languages, meaning they grew from the mixing of two or more separate languages. these are linguistically considered a different category from what we know as traditional language and from dialects/ethnolects. fun fact, the International Space Station has a pidgin language made from the mixing of English, Chinese, and Russian (main nationalities of astronauts who live and work there).
LOL, that's why a lot of people jokingly say Chileans speak Chilean not Spanish. My friend taught in Peru and when she crossed the border she couldn't understand anything.

It's also cause they makeup words and then have conjugations for those words.
 

Hi5Perry

Team Owner
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
8,841
Reaction score
Reactions
56,476 2,322 678
60,119
Alleybux
53,511
Dialect. It's too similar to standard English to be a different language. A Brit, Australian & Black American can easily understand each other in spite of variations in terms/ meanings/ accents; it's all English

Creole/Patois has diverged so far from it's root language that it's a different language. When my Bahamian relatives start speaking creole, I really can't understand them. Even though it's an English-based creole & I can identify some words to get the gist of what's being said, it's too dissimilar from English for me to fully comprehend.
 

moxyland

cracked out busted down washed up guttercat
Joined
Aug 28, 2017
Messages
3,185
Reaction score
Reactions
26,973 947 125
32,628
Alleybux
24,502
I wanted to continue linguistics but the VA (who paid for everything in the VR&E program) felt that being an SLP would be more of a money maker. Fast forward, and I kind of hate doing speech and wish I had stayed with linguistics hahaha
they were right, most linguistics opportunities are academia (not for me) or artificial intelligence (not for me, terrible at math). I feel you though, I was not interested in the SLP path at all.


LOL, that's why a lot of people jokingly say Chileans speak Chilean not Spanish. My friend taught in Peru and when she crossed the border she couldn't understand anything.

It's also cause they makeup words and then have conjugations for those words.
yeah, I think because everyone learns a language ppl forget that there is A LOT of politics and human BS involved in formation or enforcement of language.

eta: if ADOS never integrated, I wonder if AAVE would have become a separate language rather than a dialect.
 

sophiasofi

For half a minute there wasn't a sound.
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
39,265
Reaction score
Reactions
333,304 12,152 6,802
336,820
Alleybux
270,000
It's a dialect that is of course, very heavily "borrowed" from by a little of everyone in some shape or form.
 

SuccessfullyMe

Team Owner
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
23,281
Reaction score
Reactions
238,527 6,659 3,637
249,487
Alleybux
66,253
dialect-
  1. a particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group.
It's defined as both in linguistic circles but I get that people are try to diminish by label as one over the other.

The language is English. It's not like we have a unique way of saying a whole sentence that can be translated back to English. It's spicy English. We may change a few words, but it's pretty much English with a unique use of a common word.

It's like sign language. There is one universal American sign language, but there are different dialects that are based on location. Some signs do not exist in other states ... hell school communities have specific signs for things since it's such a tight community.
 

kris_517

Team Owner
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
51,940
Reaction score
Reactions
368,819 5,350 1,216
414,779
Alleybux
1,029,045
The language is English. It's not like we have a unique way of saying a whole sentence that can be translated back to English. It's spicy English. We may change a few words, but it's pretty much English with a unique use of a common word.

It's like sign language. There is one universal American sign language, but there are different dialects that are based on location. Some signs do not exist in other states ... hell school communities have specific signs for things since it's such a tight community.

We disagree. Done.
 

matakimyata

Under construction
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
547
Reaction score
Reactions
2,970 2
4,919
Alleybux
0
It is a dialect but it has its own unique grammatical structures (found across all regions) and vocabulary, some of which vary by region but some that is central to AAVE.

I took a Black literature & linguistics class in college and it was one of the best classes I ever had.
 
Last edited:

TheRose

MVP
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
964
Reaction score
Reactions
6,643 70 18
8,036
Alleybux
4,356
I'm on the fence. On the one hand you definitely have to learn how to speak with, as I jokingly refer to, a "blaccent," it's not standard English, ppl that arent black but grow up around a lot of blk ppl definitely sound natural when they talk using AAVE. Lil Dicky is Jewish from Philly and sounds natural. But going as far to call it a language idk. I do think patois is closer to a language than aave mainly b/c it's not easily adopted into standard English like aave. So I say dialect.

Funny, I once argued a Nigerian man down telling him patios was definitely a language.

Social media and mass media in general has made AAVE easier for the world to consume. If people was to hear it for the first time they wouldn’t know.
 

matakimyata

Under construction
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
547
Reaction score
Reactions
2,970 2
4,919
Alleybux
0
Social media and mass media in general has made AAVE easier for the world to consume. If people was to hear it for the first time they wouldn’t know.

This is true and yet so many people still speak it incorrectly. I feel like people focus too much on what we say and how we speak, but pay little to no attention to the other aspects of the dialect (sentence construction, unique usage of tense and negatives, etc.) to see and understand the nuances and difference between AAVE and Standard American English.
 

RUDE

What do I think of her? I don't think of her.
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
2,763
Reaction score
Reactions
18,607 37 16
34,535
Alleybux
103,445
It's a dialect. AAVE isn't even the same across the US ... hell in the same states it's different.

We don't use bet in NYC, but it's common in Texas.

A language is typically can be understood everywhere. I cannot understand the AAVE of someone in the deep south like Mississippi or Louisiana. We may be black and speak English, but our AAVE is not the same.

Im sorry, I see what youre saying but this isnt exactly correct.

Southern Italy has idioms that are vastly different from that of Northern italy. Specifically the regions that border France and Austria.

Does that make Italian a non-language?

I think there's enough evidence to argue that AAVE is for sure a language, it all depends on how you're defining the word "language" in your head.
 
Last edited:

RUDE

What do I think of her? I don't think of her.
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
2,763
Reaction score
Reactions
18,607 37 16
34,535
Alleybux
103,445
It is a dialect but it has its own unique grammatical structures (found across all regions) and vocabulary, some of which vary by region but some that is central to AAVE.

I took a Black literature & linguistics class in college and it was one of the best classes I ever had.
I wish i took more linguistics courses!

Learning about what makes a language and how languages are formed and ever changing is so interesting.

Have you checked out Langfocus on youtube? He does a good job of breaking things down. And he JUST put up a video on AAVE. How coincidental?!

YouTube
 

matakimyata

Under construction
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
547
Reaction score
Reactions
2,970 2
4,919
Alleybux
0
I wish i took more linguistics courses!

Learning about what makes a language and how languages are formed and ever changing is so interesting.

Have you checked out Langfocus on youtube? He does a good job of breaking things down. And he JUST put up a video on AAVE. How coincidental?!

YouTube

I love language studies. That class so impactful to me, especially coming from a school system that put AAVE down for being incorrect and a marker of lack of intelligence.

I haven’t watched his channel. I’ll check out the link and see what he’s talking about. TFP
 

DarkBrandon

CHEVERLY OWES ME $100
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
16,978
Reaction score
Reactions
93,509 1,070 352
106,562
Alleybux
502,408
Language.

There's


Im sorry, I see what youre saying but this isnt exactly correct.

Southern Italy has idioms that are vastly different from that of Northern italy. Specifically the regions that border France and Austria.

Does that make Italian a non-language?

I think there's enough evidence to argue that AAVE is for sure a language, it all depends on how you're defining the word "language" in your head.

I think this has a lot to do with Italy's development as a country. If I recall, the country wasn't even unified until like the mid 1800s. Back in the day (like 15th or 16th century?), a bunch of upper class, educated people saw some poetry with what would be the Italian language in it and wanted to use it, but many of the states/areas kept using their own vernacular. I think because of proximity and intermixing, there were similarities in language between states, but the different areas had different roots and influences, e.g. Sardo, Latin, Vulgar latin. Even today, there is apparently still an issue of not having mutual intelligibility of the Italian language in some parts due to variances in the 5 domains of language between different areas/speakers. This isn't as common as it used to be but that last part is part of why they've been considered separate languages to some people.

TL;DR: I'm sure actual Italian fonts or our resident linguist could probably correct me or even explain it better lmao

ETA: I've been out of school for years so feel free to correct any of this info or tell me to fµck off lmfao
 
Last edited:

Similar Threads

The Culture

News Alley

Ask LSA

Top Bottom