The "jumped the shark"/when the show startet going astray thread

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I agree with all thats been said. The show has went down alot and the ratings show that. Season 1 was flawless, things went down in Season 2 and never got back right.

My jump the shark/disappointed moments:
- The Hapstall Case in Season 2 was so boring. It took up most of the season, then they rushed it in the season finale.
- Asher and Michaela becoming a couple, they are not compatible. Laurel and Wes a couple, Laurel acting like was in love with Wes when they've only been dating a short time. Both couples seemed forced.
- Killing Wes off the show. He was the 2nd main character, why kill someone that important off, for no reason. Asher wouldve been my choice :whistle:
-Oliver...when he became a regular. Connor is so dull with him now. I liked when Connor was a thot. And Oliver acting like he's in love with Simon now, really?
- Simon being alive after he got shot in the head....how is it that even possible. He's pointless on the show.
-I miss the cases and classroom scenes. They need to bring thst format back asap, and rehire AK back at the Univ. So the students dont have other classes they go to? Not realistic...
-Not finishing Michaela's white crackhead mother storyline. Wouldve been more Interesting.
- Connor having two gay dads, really? You can tell they make up stuff along the way...smh.
- I wouldve loved to see Teagan and Annalise interact more besides that one episode. Amirah was wasted on this show.
-Annalise needs love.....everybody she has chemistry with they either ruin it or dont act on it: Eve, Nate, Wes, Soraya, Bonnie, Isaac.
- And Of course Laurel's telenovela storyline....the worst thing thats happened on HTGAWM
 
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- The Hapstall Case in Season 2 was so boring. It took up most of the season, then they rushed it in the season finale.
It was disappointing more than it was boring at least up to the midseason finale. It looked so promising but they completely screwed it up. The final twist was so dumb.

- Asher and Michaela becoming a couple, they are not compatible. Laurel and Wes a couple, Laurel acting like was in love with Wes when they've only been dating a short time. Both couples seemed forced.
The Asher/Michaela pairing benefits Asher more. They even had a Asher going woke arc attached to it.
Michaela is such a wasted opportunity and Aja has better screen presence than the rest of them to.

I wasn't bother with Laurel acting in love with Wes because they did the same with every other couple on the show. It wasn't better or worse than any other K5 couple in the show for me.

- Killing Wes off the show. He was the 2nd main character, why kill someone that important off, for no reason. Asher wouldve been my choice :whistle:
It wouldn't be a bad choice either. But can you imagine Annalise if it was Asher under the sheet. She'd probably just shrug and move on with her life within 90 seconds.

Another thing about Wes being killed off that is overlooked is that one of the main complains about black characters on screen is how they're treated as disposable and easily killed off. It kind of goes to show the hypocrisy of all the diversity/inclusiveness talk. It was tangible too that there was some awareness of it in the reviews/recaps on various sites. You'd see people almost desperately trying to convince themselves that ol' Pete was going to give them a good enough reason for killing of Wes.

-Oliver...when he became a regular. Connor is so dull with him now. I liked when Connor was a thot. And Oliver acting like he's in love with Simon now, really?
- Simon being alive after he got shot in the head....how is it that even possible. He's pointless on the show.
It's pointless to the show but it's essential for Pete to show us how precious Oliver and Connor are. The whole plan and Simon thing seems written to give a storyline to Oliver.
Connor was a thot for the benefits of the cases of the week. I think he's a character that only works in very small doses.
The by default whiny on the verge of tears tone of all of their lines is one of the most irritating things about this show.
In general I find that their feelings are given way too much space. A couple of seasons ago I also noticed how Connor is always vocal about how his life was ruined by Annalise and Wes but then there's nothing really wrong with his life - literally everything keeps going his way. Such a drama queen.

-Not finishing Michaela's white crackhead mother storyline. Wouldve been more Interesting.
That was so stupid how she disappeared in thin air.

- Connor having two gay dads, really? You can tell they make up stuff along the way...smh.
..and as a kid inspiring the biologic one to come out of the closet.
Next season we'll find out that his biological mother is Cher - explains the perpetual blank stare expression.

- I wouldve loved to see Teagan and Annalise interact more besides that one episode. Amirah was wasted on this show.
True.
 
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For me
- Them not giving us a proper backstory for Michaela. We still don't know much about her upbringing aside from being adopted and raised by a white tr@sh family.
- Wes & Laurel becoming a couple. DUMB
- Wes dying
- Laurel's reaction to his death like she didn't cheat on him with frank. And that cringe worthy penis joke
- Laurel's family being involved in his death. The whole thing is just stupid to me. I would have preferred Meggy having something to do with it via a Mahony storyline
- Annalise telling frank to kill himself. He's an awful person for what he did but that entire scene was just too much.
- Connor & Michaela friendship. I have never liked his character and hate how they made these two friends despite the way he treats Michaela
- I hated when Annalise lied to Wes about Rebecca being alive instead of just telling him the truth. That was a big part of what was killing their relationship
- Asher killing Sinclair. That whole rape storyline was just bad
- The hapstall case was boring and my least favorite part of season 2. The actor with the light eyes was a terrible actor.
- Bonnie sabotaging Annelise's lawsuit over a damn envelope instead of just talking to her like a grown ass women. If I was Annalise, the chance of us reconciling after that would've dropped to 0 because she screwed over innocent people trying to be petty.
 
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- Connor & Michaela friendship. I have never liked his character and hate how they made these two friends despite the way he treats Michaela

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- I hated when Annalise lied to Wes about Rebecca being alive instead of just telling him the truth. That was a big part of what was killing their relationship
This one deserves an essay.

Bonnie killed Rebecca for shock value. The motive was never particularly clear. But as very often with this show instead of following through with how these OMGs would logically influence the storyline, they sweep them under the carpet.
Annalise couldn't tell Wes what happened to Rebecca because if she did it creates a complicated dynamic between him, Annalise and Bonnie.
Basically Annalise had to pick. Actually it's the writers that choose to not have Bonnie face any consequence of the murder she committed, so that's who Annalise had to pick. Also remember this was in S at height of it's all Annalise's/Wes' fault. Even Rebecca's murder - people would passionately go after Annalise for not being grateful enough for what Bonnie did for her by killing Rebecca.
Parallel to this you have Wes' storyline trying to understand what happened to Rebecca. He could never succeed at it for the reason described above. If Wes finds out what happened to Rebecca - Bonnie faces consequences and the writers weren't interested in that. Wes quest was also extremely unpopular first within the show - no one in the show was supporting him, what pain all of it might have been causing him was never explored, quite opposite the writing made a point to show us he isn't worthy of being cared about repeatedly.
There is an interesting comparison between this storyline and Laurel's post Wes' murder. Both are made to look bad for essentially doing the same thing. It's why I don't buy the notion that the writers are trying to make us care for Laurel. The don't they're using her as foil for the characters they want us to care about, same as they did with Wes.

By the end of the 2nd season, Bonnie would be joined by Asher, and eventually Frank as the characters who's killings are underplayed, they are babied, they are portrayed with compassion, other characters care about them - usually the same characters who berate Wes and Annalise.

Which brings us to:

- Annalise telling frank to kill himself. He's an awful person for what he did but that entire scene was just too much.

I said in the favorite scenes thread I had an issue with how this scene ended. I always thought the Annalise-Frank confrontation scene should have been Frank really getting what he deserved from Annalise. I wanted Annalise going at him so much that he'd end up crawled in a fetal position by the time she was over with him.
In chronological order, here's what Frank made himself guilty of:
-a couple of months after Annalise gets his ass out of jail, he goes after her back because she wasn't nice to him and facilitates what resulted in the accident that ended up in Annalise loosing her unborn son
-10 years later Sam has him kill Lila, otherwise he'd tell Annalise what he did in the past
That means that Frank is 100% responsible for everything Annalise and Wes were being accused of.
I really like pointing out how Frank had 0 shits to give when Annalise was going crazy when se realised Sam was probably involved in Lila's murder.

Back to that scene. That scene ends with Annalise literally disappearing in the background while Bonnie consoles Frank. So we're lead to side with/care for Frank over Annalise.

This is the same episode we discover Wes is dead, meanwhile Frank proceeds to be redeemed while we're constantly reminded Wes is the reason they're all in this mess, while Annalise is undergoing the mother of all punishment storylines. Oh and allegedly Wes was about to snitch because he found out Rebecca has been murdered which could have gone away if Bonnie admitted to have committed that crime, leaving Annalise off the hook.
 
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OP I mostly agree with your assessment but I’m very biased and like the show regardless. I do think it started going downhill after the Hapstalls’ (definitely the best season, I still get chills watching the shooting scene). I didn’t realize how bad the show was really doing until they started all this shit.

That’s kind of the problem with these kinds of shows though. You can’t just keep killing people and getting away with it. Annalise can’t just be a boss with no impunity for season after season. The writers just carried on a bit too long. Too much jail shit, too much blaming Wes and Anna, not enough character development for the rest of the K4/5.

As to your question, this crossover el is jumping the shark for me. All the dramas are doing it, which is evidence they are being dragged out for no reason. Empire + Star is so corny to crossover but it “kinda” works. Olivia and Annalise is literally just fan service. Spoilers: O isn’t even in the WH anymore so WTF is she gonna do? Teach? Lmaoo

Also I loved Laurel. She was smart and sweet and her scenes with Frank were delicious. Hooking her up with Wes was so stupid and ruined her character.
 
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Scandal jumped the shark when it became heavily focused on the Olivia/Fitz relationship. I remember when it use to be about the cases that Olivia and them worked on and the personal relatioships were secondary. That show jumped the shark once it because Olivia and Fitz first and then everything else was secondary. It's dying a slow death in its final season.

I think Scandal jumped the shark by introducing B613. Took the show from a regular politico-drama with a little scandal and mystery to a full blown conspiracy mess. B613 became the answer to everything. Killing people was ok because B613. Every shady thing that happens and every fucked up character is B613. Polluted the show.
 
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That’s kind of the problem with these kinds of shows though. You can’t just keep killing people and getting away with it. Annalise can’t just be a boss with no impunity for season after season. The writers just carried on a bit too long. Too much jail shit, too much blaming Wes and Anna, not enough character development for the rest of the K4/5.
The problem is that the writers don't realise that. They seem to always relay on a few tricks we all see coming before they happen which makes the show boring.
There are infinite directions they could take this show in from S2. They stuck with the same formula where there's a big event, something goes wrong and instead of actually doing something they bitch, moan and blame one anther for what is essentially lazy writing.
Like the whole Simon thing this season. There's no real reason for that plan going wrong (especially when there's the elevator scene happening) except to have the "chosen ones" blame the "damned ones" while the plots are going nowhere.
 
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  • When they got rid of the cases and classes.
  • When they made Frank a whiny bitch.
  • When they tried to make Werel a thing. Even my kindergarten husband and I had a better love story and more chemistry.
  • When they turned HTGAWM into some Mexican soap opera. Abducted baby, Dominic being on #TeamJorge and #TeamJorgesCrazyEx and #TeamEgoisticalLaurel and #TeamEmergencyContactOfWes
  • When they made AK and Bonnie enemies. It just breaks my heart.
 
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  • When they got rid of the cases and classes.
  • When they made Frank a whiny bitch.
  • When they tried to make Werel a thing. Even my kindergarten husband and I had a better love story and more chemistry.
  • When they turned HTGAWM into some Mexican soap opera. Abducted baby, Dominic being on #TeamJorge and #TeamJorgesCrazyEx and #TeamEgoisticalLaurel and #TeamEmergencyContactOfWes
  • When they made AK and Bonnie enemies. It just breaks my heart.

All of this. I gave zero fucks about that midseason finale, I don't watch HTGAWM to watch folks give birth in an elevator or for baby drama. And Frank has become nothing more than Laurel's lapdog. Pete can keep this. Viola deserves better.
 
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I disagree with the sentiment that the show fell off or that there was a jump the shark moment. I actually think it's recieved an exponential if not inconsistent increase in quality because it wasn't that good to begin with on a technical level IMO. In fact, it was kind of poor.

I agree that Viola Davis, and her ability to turn water into wine via the craft of acting and bringing a script to life, is probably why the show has lasted so long because after that, there aren't many if any beneficient attributes or laudable accomplishments and the show is a general clusterfudge of plot expedience and convenient character assasination (Wes and Annalise, as has already been stated).

The K5 are an incredibly lacklustre ensemble group of indviduals who, up until the latest season, have really only existed to chew scenery and provide mouth-pieces for expository dialogue, vulgar conversations and/or cringe-worthy sx scenes (except for Wes), Frank has about as much depth and mystery as a cardboard box and the cases of the week were kind of boring--additionally, the characters themselves and the plot are poorly conceived. It's unclear whether Nowalk and co. wanted this to be a procedural-type show or a long-running mystery drama with extensive mythology.

There was too much of an over-reliance on the cases of the week to occupy time inbetween the overarching concurrent murder night plot (that was being made up as the writers went along lmfao) and not enough time exploring the idiosyncracies of the main characters and their contributions to the overall plot.

Annalise's character was somewhat 2-dimensional in the first season and one-note. I didn't see any of the complexity or nuanced depictions of fictional black women inherent within her character that so many review sites at the time were claiming. The only difference was that she was incredibly prominent, but there weren't many shades to her character. If she wasn't lambasting someone in the courtroom, it was an argument with Sam or a gratuitous love scene with Nate. The only part of Annalise's character arc that I enjoyed in
season 1 was her interactions with her mother. I think she becomes a more fleshed out character in Season 2 onwards, though.

Everything just seems to happen for the sake of happenstance, and it looks like a good show because of how surprising everything is on first watch, but not so much after critical appraisal and the evidence of obvious contradictions. So again, I don't think the show ever fell off. I do think that Season 3 was the show at its peak awfulness--the treatment of Wes' character was disgusting--but I think it's improved since then.

I think Season 4 is a step in the right direction and I have thoroughly enjoyed Annalise's road to damascus, as it were, and the intermingling of her character arc with Dr Roa.
 
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I actually agree with pretty much everything you wrote. Your perspective is interesting.

I disagree with the sentiment that the show fell off or that there was a jump the shark moment. I actually think it's recieved an exponential if not inconsistent increase in quality because it wasn't that good to begin with on a technical level IMO. In fact, it was kind of poor.
I thought since 2 that HTGAWM lived of the benefit of the doubt it had by the audience. I think most expected/hoped it eventually will prove to be worth the hype/expectations on various fronts.
Once it became obvious it wasn't going to happen its fall from grace started.

The K5 are an incredibly lacklustre ensemble group of indviduals who, up until the latest season, have really only existed to chew scenery and provide mouth-pieces for expository dialogue, vulgar conversations and/or cringe-worthy sx scenes (except for Wes), Frank has about as much depth and mystery as a cardboard box and the cases of the week were kind of boring--additionally, the characters themselves and the plot are poorly conceived. It's unclear whether Nowalk and co. wanted this to be a procedural-type show or a long-running mystery drama with extensive mythology.
Nowalk wanted to pull a Scandal. Start as hybrid procedural and eventually go full on serialised soapy drama.
Currently he seems to whish the show was a dramedy around the K4+Oliver.
The mystery has been merely a backdrop since S2 - it's why is so poorly concieved.
I think the cases of the week had the beneficial side effect of reducing the space given to the minor characters.
As long as their prominence was limited and their characterisation virtually nonexistent (at times the K5, except Wes, felt like the same character in how little differentiated they were) the audience could project on them whatever the hell they wanted making them feel better than they ever were.
Frank is a good example of this. The attempt to turn him into a complex character, not only failed but took all the fun out of the character.

There was too much of an over-reliance on the cases of the week to occupy time inbetween the overarching concurrent murder night plot (that was being made up as the writers went along lmfao) and not enough time exploring the idiosyncracies of the main characters and their contributions to the overall plot.
There are no contributions to the overall plot to speak off. The "mystery" punctually turns out to be something that happened on the spur of the moment.
The little contributions to the plot are subordinated to how it reflects on specific characters and the tedious never changing dynamic between the characters.

Given that the more time they spend exploring the idiosyncrasies of the main characters the more insufferable they become, i'd gladly trade this with the cases of the week. The more time they spend on them the less time they have to bitch and moan, plus the cases of the week were self contained mysteries themselves. Win-win.

Annalise's character was somewhat 2-dimensional in the first season and one-note. I didn't see any of the complexity or nuanced depictions of fictional black women inherent within her character that so many review sites at the time were claiming. The only difference was that she was incredibly prominent, but there weren't many shades to her character. If she wasn't lambasting someone in the courtroom, it was an argument with Sam or a gratuitous love scene with Nate. The only part of Annalise's character arc that I enjoyed in
season 1 was her interactions with her mother. I think she becomes a more fleshed out character in Season 2 onwards, though.
She eventually became more fleshed out because Viola took over the characterisation. The point being Nowalk couldn't flesh out these characters if his life depended on it.

It's true, characters like Annalise or Olivia get a "temporary" pas but their merits were exaggerated. The complexity of Shondaland characters is exaggerated to begin with, but Annalise and Olivia had the added burden of representation so there's a delicate balance one needs to find when judging them and it seems to be something review sites haven't managed to achieve yet.

Everything just seems to happen for the sake of happenstance, and it looks like a good show because of how surprising everything is on first watch, but not so much after critical appraisal and the evidence of obvious contradictions. So again, I don't think the show ever fell off. I do think that Season 3 was the show at its peak awfulness--the treatment of Wes' character was disgusting--but I think it's improved since then.

I think Season 4 is a step in the right direction and I have thoroughly enjoyed Annalise's road to damascus, as it were, and the intermingling of her character arc with Dr Roa.
I think everyone agrees that when it comes to Annalise season 4 is a step in the right direction (again due to Viola's insistence) but I think it isn't enough to make up for the character destruction she underwent in past seasons.
The character destruction felt unjustified, so the redemption arc isn't resonating with the audience.

The reason it feels as if it fell of, is because if only the first season existed its flaws would never be evident or relevant.
I definitely agree that most of the shortcomings that became obvious in S2 and beyond are there in S1 in retrospect, but S1 promised to become a show it never has and I don't think S1 will ever lose that quality. It didn't feel beyond fixing as it does now.

The arc with Roa disappointed like any other overreaching arc. Roa started as a character that was supposed to be advancing Annalise's arc but slowly that dynamic was reversed becoming yet another burden for Annalise.
 
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I actually agree with pretty much everything you wrote. You're perspective is interesting.


I thought since 2 that HTGAWM lived of the benefit of the doubt it had by the audience. I think most expected/hoped it eventually will prove to be worth the hype/expectations on various fronts.
Once it became obvious it wasn't going to happen its fall from grace started.


Nowalk wanted to pull a Scandal. Start as hybrid procedural and eventually go full on serialised soapy drama.
Currently he seems to whish the show was a dramedy around the K4+Oliver.
The mystery has been merely a backdrop since S2 - it's why is so poorly concieved.
I think the cases of the week had the beneficial side effect of reducing the space given to the minor characters.
As long as their prominence was limited and their characterisation virtually nonexistent (at times the K5, except Wes, felt like the same character in how little differentiated they were) the audience could project on them whatever the hell they wanted making them feel better than they ever were.
Frank is a good example of this. The attempt to turn him into a complex character, not only failed but took all the fun out of the character.


There are no contributions to the overall plot to speak off. The "mystery" punctually turns out to be something that happened on the spur of the moment.
The little contributions to the plot are subordinated to how it reflects on specific characters and the tedious never changing dynamic between the characters.

Given that the more time they spend exploring the idiosyncrasies of the main characters the more insufferable they become, i'd gladly trade this with the cases of the week. The more time they spend on them the less time they have to bitch and moan, plus the cases of the week were self contained mysteries themselves. Win-win.


She eventually became more fleshed out because Viola took over the characterisation. The point being Nowalk couldn't flesh out these characters if his life depended on it.

It's true, characters like Annalise or Olivia get a "temporary" pas but their merits were exaggerated. The complexity of Shondaland characters is exaggerated to begin with, but Annalise and Olivia had the added burden of representation so there's a delicate balance one needs to find when judging them and it seems to be something review sites haven't managed to achieve yet.


I think everyone agrees that when it comes to Annalise season 4 is a step in the right direction (again due to Viola's insistence) but I think it isn't enough to make up for the character destruction she underwent in past seasons.
The character destruction felt unjustified, so the redemption arc isn't resonating with the audience.

The reason it feels as if it fell of, is because if only the first season existed its flaws would never be evident or relevant.
I definitely agree that most of the shortcomings that became obvious in S2 and beyond are there in S1 in retrospect, but S1 promised to become a show it never has and I don't think S1 will ever lose that quality. It didn't feel beyond fixing as it does now.

The arc with Roa disappointed like any other overreaching arc. Roa started as a character that was supposed to be advancing Annalise's arc but slowly that dynamic was reversed becoming yet another burden for Annalise.

I strongly agree with you too, GrahamCracker. I've been patrolling this alley for a while now and your sentiments strongly resonate with mine! Great minds, and all that...:)

(I haven't yet familiarized myself with the multi-quote function, apologies in advance!)

Yes. I agree. Before the premiere of S4, S2 was my favourite because of the exploration of the Annalise/Wes backstory and the conclusive resolutions provided to the mystery of Wes' parents (at the time) and Annalise' baby, as well as a menagerie of other things such as the increasing proximity between and fortification of the Laurel-Wes-Annalise trifecta, but I realise that this season is probably the most discombobulating of the first three because a lot of things and a lot of character decisions don't make sense and do not coincide with the previously established tight-knit formula of S1. The fumbling conclusion to the Hapstall saga being a glaring example.

Lmao. I see that with Coliver and I think Nowalk's fixation with this relationship is what's killing the series. Another reason why I hate S3 was because of how much attention this prosaic pairing received despite the fact that it had nothing to do with Annalise or the overarching plot smh. Every second dedicated to it felt like a farcical attempt to inflate the importance of the subplot and place it at the center-piece of whatever was going on--an uneccessary digression and the series suffered for it. #Fail.

But don't you think it wold have been better to provide more exposure to the K5, on the condition that they are characterized adequately and their story-arcs at least somewhat compliment Annalise's? I think that might be a personal thing for me, in that I value (obsess over) character exploration and character development and feel like a show/book/comicbook/series is poorer if these things are lacking.

You're right lol. I cannot dispute that. Nowalk has made that a fixture for all murder nights lmfao.

In terms of the cases being self-contained, that's a somewhat minor issue for me personally just because I would prefer if they had consequential weight or impact on Annalise's character. The David Allen case, for example, was a good demonstration of a case affecting Annalise's character and approach and it also lampshaded Asher's father's corruption, so, again, there was consequence. Hence why I love the approach to the cases this season because they've all been leading up to the Class Action and this is all related to Annalise's rise back to glory/redemption. They all matter and all have weight.

Lmfao Agreed. They should have had someone supervise him on the show or something. But then I've realised that for writers, the actual art of crafting a complex character is quite the feat to pull off--at least if you're not familiar with that or have lived a sheltered life. It's amazing how much Viola has contributed to the exploration and development of Annalise's character even though that's not her job. But then she's a producer, so...

Slightly agreed. I would also add that it might be too late for the former viewership to feel emotionally invested. But you're right, the execution of Annalise's downfall was haphazard--did it even really need to happen?

Agreed. Had S1 been a standalone season (although they would have needed to have decided that Frank was the culprit and not decided it an episode beforehand smh) then it would have been a fairly alright show and not something that has been carried on the strength of Viola Davis alone.

I haven't seen the episodes after 4x8, but from the clips I've seen on YoTube it looks like their relationship has devolved several gradations. However, I at least think there's a logical explanation in that Isaac was already damaged goods and Annalise's unique flavour of damaged goods inadvertently offset the afflictions he hadn't dealt with.
 
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Lmao. I see that with Coliver and I think Nowalk's fixation with this relationship is what's killing the series. Another reason why I hate S3 was because of how much attention this prosaic pairing received despite the fact that it had nothing to do with Annalise or the overarching plot smh. Every second dedicated to it felt like a farcical attempt to inflate the importance of the subplot and place it at the center-piece of whatever was going on--an uneccessary digression and the series suffered for it. #Fail.
In the latest episode Annalise gathers them to discuss the latest developments about Simon/Laurel and Oliver just starts going on and one about the upcoming wedding with Connor until Annalise shuts him down. You can't make this shit up.

But don't you think it wold have been better to provide more exposure to the K5, on the condition that they are characterized adequately and their story-arcs at least somewhat compliment Annalise's? I think that might be a personal thing for me, in that I value (obsess over) character exploration and character development and feel like a show/book/comicbook/series is poorer if these things are lacking.
People like to think of these shows as ensembles, but they're not. The characters are organised on concentric circles with the protagonist at the center.
There were characters always too far away from Annalise to ever work in the long run. Especially the students. There's a revolving door of minor characters in these shows for a reason.
Only a few can really be worked in the narrative. This would have been Wes from the K5.
Asher's connection to Annalise was resolved early in S1 and it does nothing to justify his presence in the show.
The natural progression for Connor after S2 would have been him leaving. There were no real reasons for him to stay considering how much of an issue he had with Annalise.
Michaela is the perpetual best friend in the show. What they should have done with her is play with the analogies with Annalise and explore the generational differences between their experiences, if there were any. They did nothing to explore the specificity of a Michaela in the context of an elite law school.
They sort of did it with Wes but in derogatory terms.
Laurel's mingling with the characters close to Annalise could have been the basis for some interesting storylines that could have re-shaped the dynamics between characters, but with Wes dead and Frank neutered and her carrying the overreaching plot this season, the potential of the character seems all but extinguished.
With all Frank made himself guilty off, there's no real plausible reason for Annalise to want him around anymore. As with Connor the obvious choice would have been writing him out of the show. But with this type of characters it's taken for granted that the audience is invested in them, so they stick around whether it makes sense or not.
People want Annalise to forgive Frank, so that he would be OK, what that means for Annalise is of little interest.

The show has another of this character concentric circles arrangements around Connor and Oliver. It's a show within the show. Connor and Oliver are the main couple while Asher and Michaela are the side kicks, the rest are re-occurring. Simon's arc is only functional to this sub-show. Their connection to Annalise became unimportant at this point.

Laurel is left hanging somewhere in between this season similar to Bonnie or Nate.

As Connor's universe expanded, Annalise's shrunk.

Slightly agreed. I would also add that it might be too late for the former viewership to feel emotionally invested. But you're right, the execution of Annalise's downfall was haphazard--did it even really need to happen?
It didn't but it seems mandatory for leading black female characters in dramas.

They seemed to have been under the assumption that the generic yet tedious subplot drama around Coliver and I guess Flaurel could carry the show. The audience interested in these type of narrative has plenty to chose from so it will never do anything for this shows ratings.
They alienated the people invested in all the other sides of the show that it's not very likely for them to give the show another chance. But if there's someone who can perform the miracle it's Viola.

Agreed. Had S1 been a standalone season (although they would have needed to have decided that Frank was the culprit and not decided it an episode beforehand smh) then it would have been a fairly alright show and not something that has been carried on the strength of Viola Davis alone.
I always thought it was ridiculous to see Frank as he was in the early episodes knowing he just strangled the life out of Lila.


haven't seen the episodes after 4x8, but from the clips I've seen on YoTube it looks like their relationship has devolved several gradations. However, I at least think there's a logical explanation in that Isaac was already damaged goods and Annalise's unique flavour of damaged goods inadvertently offset the afflictions he hadn't dealt with.
Well that explains a lot. I'll just say Isaac concluded his arc in hospital on dialysis after he relapsed and ODed which is somehow Annalise's fault. His backstory is that he got hooked on assorted opiates before meeting his wife, probably never stopped and his daughter died of an accidental OD by taking his drugs.
 
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In the latest episode Annalise gathers them to discuss the latest developments about Simon/Laurel and Oliver just starts going on and one about the upcoming wedding with Connor until Annalise shuts him down. You can't make this shit up.

Ahaha. From what I've gleamed from several review sites and predominantly Reddit, Oliver's character is turning into a nuisance/detritus. Another negative ramification of the editorial changes implemented in S3. He never should have been a substitute for Wes as a main char. I look forward to watching that lol. Whilst I found his character somewhat endearing in a tangentially novel way in S1, he startd to chafe as he became more embroiled within the macrocosm of Annalise/K5 IMO.


People like to think of these shows as ensembles, but they're not. The characters are organised on concentric circles with the protagonist at the center.
There were characters always too far away from Annalise to ever work in the long run. Especially the students. There's a revolving door of minor characters in these shows for a reason.
Only a few can really be worked in the narrative. This would have been Wes from the K5.
Asher's connection to Annalise was resolved early in S1 and it does nothing to justify his presence in the show.
The natural progression for Connor after S2 would have been him leaving. There were no real reasons for him to stay considering how much of an issue he had with Annalise.
Michaela is the perpetual best friend in the show. What they should have done with her is play with the analogies with Annalise and explore the generational differences between their experiences, if there were any. They did nothing to explore the specificity of a Michaela in the context of an elite law school.
They sort of did it with Wes but in derogatory terms.
Laurel's mingling with the characters close to Annalise could have been the basis for some interesting storylines that could have re-shaped the dynamics between characters, but with Wes dead and Frank neutered and her carrying the overreaching plot this season, the potential of the character seems all but extinguished.

Hmm. I suppose I viewed them in the context of an assemble coterie because the K5 were presented as being situated at the centre of the conflict and we're initially introduced to the powder-keg of chaos through their perspectives as well as Annalise's, but I see and understand that perspective, too. I strongly agree with the assertion that certain characters and whatever microcosmic story they carried along with them were too far removed from Annalise/the crux of the story to work. S3 being a blatant example of that with the Coliver subplot. Also agreed on the assessment of Michaela's character arc and modus operandi at least as of the first three seasons, as I feel this season did a better job of juxtaposing Annalise and Michaela's character if not in the generational aspect but in the mother-daughter aspect.


With all Frank made himself guilty off, there's no real plausible reason for Annalise to want him around anymore. As with Connor the obvious choice would have been writing him out of the show. But with this type of characters it's taken for granted that the audience is invested in them, so they stick around whether it makes sense or not.
People want Annalise to forgive Frank, so that he would be OK, what that means for Annalise is of little interest.

AGREED. Hence why I've come to scrutinize the credibility of the show's creative masthead(s). He's never been called to account or taken to task on his trangressions and there's a defecit of instances in which Frank is subjected to a form of penance or expiation that is equivalent to all of the crap that he's put Annalise and the rest of the K5 through.

Why do you think Nowalk and co. are so reluctant to have Frank face the consequences of his actions? This is a petty aside, but I notice the fandom almost always overlooks everything Frank has done in the same way the narrative of the show does. Unfortunately Wes was never afforded the same luxury smh.

The show has another of this character concentric circles arrangements around Connor and Oliver. It's a show within the show. Connor and Oliver are the main couple while Asher and Michaela are the side kicks, the rest are re-occurring. Simon's arc is only functional to this sub-show. Their connection to Annalise became unimportant at this point.

Laurel is left hanging somewhere in between this season similar to Bonnie or Nate.

As Connor's universe expanded, Annalise's shrunk.

I've noticed the toxicity of this dynamic, too. Annalise's definitive non-familial relationships were effectively obliterated or contorted in one fell swoop in S3 while Coliver consumate their love with a marriage proposal in the finale. Fascinating stuff. Doubly so, when, even though i've thoroughly enjoyed this season, I was somewhat taken aback by Annalise's diminished presence in 4x8 and Coliver's collective increase in narrative relevance, prominence and ubiquity. And OFC Connor got to help Annalise with the Class Action despite the terms of their relationship the three seasons previous.





Well that explains a lot. I'll just say Isaac concluded his arc in hospital on dialysis after he relapsed and ODed which is somehow Annalise's fault. His backstory is that he got hooked on assorted opiates before meeting his wife, probably never stopped and his daughter died of an accidental OD by taking his drugs.

Aw, spoilers mayne :( But thank you for the elucidation. What are your thoughts on this scene?

 
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Ahaha. From what I've gleamed from several review sites and predominantly Reddit, Oliver's character is turning into a nuisance/detritus. Another negative ramification of the editorial changes implemented in S3. He never should have been a substitute for Wes as a main char. I look forward to watching that lol. Whilst I found his character somewhat endearing in a tangentially novel way in S1, he startd to chafe as he became more embroiled within the macrocosm of Annalise/K5 IMO.
About that. I noticed there's mayor uproar over 2 (white) actresses being written off of Gray's Anatomy with hints that it may have happened due to Ellen Pompeo's pay raise. There are articles about it on mayor websites.
Funny how that never happened with Wes even though the actors were open about their displeasure with the whole thing and a backlash on social media happened just like it did for the GA situation. It's also obvious it happened to make room for Oliver who was just made into a series regular.

Reddit is one of those places where Oliver and Michaela are adored as long as they are exclusively at the service of Connor, and Laurel at the service of Frank. The hatred for Wes there was legendary.

Oliver is a joke. He's ridiculously tame and of course treated with velvet gloves by the writers. It's inevitable that he would become a nuisance in this show this way. "Adorbz" characters could never work in a show like this.

Hmm. I suppose I viewed them in the context of an assemble coterie because the K5 were presented as being situated at the centre of the conflict and we're initially introduced to the powder-keg of chaos through their perspectives as well as Annalise's, but I see and understand that perspective, too.
The POV was Wes' though, not of the K5's as a whole. Annalise isn't even introduced I think about a 1/3 way into the pilot when the POV's started switching between the 2 of them. That never really changed throughout the season.
Connor, Laurel and Michaela were only involved in Sam's killing because they had to be. It's something that stuck out to me when the blaming started - no one really told them to get involved, they got involved to not be left out so to speak.

AGREED. Hence why I've come to scrutinize the credibility of the show's creative masthead(s). He's never been called to account or taken to task on his trangressions and there's a defecit of instances in which Frank is subjected to a form of penance or expiation that is equivalent to all of the crap that he's put Annalise and the rest of the K5 through.
Frank is de facto guilty of what Annalise and Wes were being blamed for. Had the writing acknowledged that it could have been the basis for re-shaping the character dynamics.

The problem with the direction they took with Frank is best exemplified in the confrontation scene when he threatens to shoot himself. The scene ends with Annalise disappearing in the background while Bonnie consoles Frank. It's obvious who the writers "sided" with. Composing a scene like that has the purpose of having the viewer be sympathetic with Frank while dismissing Annalise.
They've done this with Annalise and Wes countless times. Both were frequently left alone in tears, while typically Connor, Bonnie or Frank had the last word emphasizing they weren't worthy of compassion.

This changed slightly this season. I wonder if they got a new script editor to fix this specifically because I notice scenes who seem to be getting there but at the last moment there's change of direction.

Why do you think Nowalk and co. are so reluctant to have Frank face the consequences of his actions? This is a petty aside, but I notice the fandom almost always overlooks everything Frank has done in the same way the narrative of the show does. Unfortunately Wes was never afforded the same luxury smh.
Because Frank is white and Wes is black.
In this type of shows the attractive white male characters can't do no wrong while black male characters can't do no right.

There's even a double standard in how interracial relationships are perceived, while people generally don't like these relationships very much, the white man/black woman are far more accepted than black man/white woman pairings.
People still act like Flaurel was this big love story even when throughout their arc it was always made clear Laurel didn't have much of any feelings for Frank. Bonnie even warns her in S1 not to break his heart. I mean come on!

But they had appealing imagery on their side so nothing else mattered.

To be fair though this only seems through for a fraction of the audience but it's the part who's voice was heard by Nowalk and amplified by the media outlets that covered the show.

I've noticed the toxicity of this dynamic, too. Annalise's definitive non-familial relationships were effectively obliterated or contorted in one fell swoop in S3 while Coliver consumate their love with a marriage proposal in the finale. Fascinating stuff. Doubly so, when, even though i've thoroughly enjoyed this season, I was somewhat taken aback by Annalise's diminished presence in 4x8 and Coliver's collective increase in narrative relevance, prominence and ubiquity. And OFC Connor got to help Annalise with the Class Action despite the terms of their relationship the three seasons previous.
Including the scene before she hires him, yes.
Eventually Michaela takes over the lead in the class action suit when she comes up with the idea to get Olivia involved to help advance the suit.
Now of course Nowalk filled the episode with Connor bitching about Michaela stealing the case for him.

Many complained about Annalise's diminished presence in 4x8. And I'm sure it's not something we were supposed to notice or be bothered by.

Aw, spoilers mayne :( But thank you for the elucidation. What are your thoughts on this scene?
Well at least Annalise had the last word. I don't find Annalise to be much of a narcissist so whatever the intent of the scene was it seemed just like Isaac being defensive while attacking her.
 
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About that. I noticed there's mayor uproar over 2 (white) actresses being written off of Gray's Anatomy with hints that it may have happened due to Ellen Pompeo's pay raise. There are articles about it on mayor websites.
Funny how that never happened with Wes even though the actors were open about their displeasure with the whole thing and a backlash on social media happened just like it did for the GA situation. It's also obvious it happened to make room for Oliver who was just made into a series regular.

SMH. Can't say I'm too surprised about the ambivalence as it pertains to Wes' character or the antipathy, either. No other character on the show was written with as much uninhibited scorn (on the writers' part) than Wes IMO--which made it all the more easier for fans to castigate him and Alfred.

Reddit is one of those places where Oliver and Michaela are adored as long as they are exclusively at the service of Connor, and Laurel at the service of Frank. The hatred for Wes there was legendary.

LOL I noticed this. Again, not to be too petty but a lot of them were incensed at the fact that Michaela had supplanted Connor's role as K4 representative for the Class Action suite lmao. It was kind of funny, whereas before they were extremely content with Michaela solely being Connor's sounding-board. Another plus one for S4 in that Michaela's managed to eke out some form of agency (to a degree) unrelated to what Connor does or does not do.

I've yet to watch the episode yet but I've been watching this scene on repeat since it came out. I feel like it's definitive callback to the initial S1 Michaela before she devolved into one of Connor's cronies.


What are your thoughts on Michaela's "character development" (or lackthereof) and more specifically, her charcter development in Season 4? I think this has been a very good season for her, so much so that she almost feels like a completely different character.

I never really got the Wes hatred, tbh. He was my favourite char. before he was unceremoniously axed It honestly perplexes me how this one character has managed to engender so much unfettered rage within an substantial quantity of people--I don't think his characterization is complex enough to say it's due to him being polarizing, but I suppose it could jst be a racial thing, too--sadly. I've just never been part of a fandom in which one character is the subject of so much unbridled rancour. It's both fascinating and somewhat disturbing, to say the least.



The POV was Wes' though, not of the K5's as a whole. Annalise isn't even introduced I think about a 1/3 way into the pilot when the POV's started switching between the 2 of them. That never really changed throughout the season.
Connor, Laurel and Michaela were only involved in Sam's killing because they had to be. It's something that stuck out to me when the blaming started - no one really told them to get involved, they got involved to not be left out so to speak.

This is true, but then perhaps I was deceived by the immediate nepotism accorded to Connor and Michaela's character directly after Wes' introduction in that whilst Wes' role in the pilot was crucial to the progression of the plot and central to it, I felt like he wasn't given much of an opportunity to display his capabilities until later on unlike Connor and Michaela in which their dynamic was immediately established explicitly from the get go (much like the Wes-Annalise-Laurel trifecta was vaguely established when Laurel stuck up for a tongue-tied Wes when Annalise questioned him in that first lesson, but this dynamic, I feel, was never really given the attention it deserved in order to lend itself credibility until it was convenient to the plot in the latter half of S2)).

May I ask what you think of the Wes-Annalise-Laurel dynamic or if there even is one?



Frank is de facto guilty of what Annalise and Wes were being blamed for. Had the writing acknowledged that it could have been the basis for re-shaping the character dynamics.

The problem with the direction they took with Frank is best exemplified in the confrontation scene when he threatens to shoot himself. The scene ends with Annalise disappearing in the background while Bonnie consoles Frank. It's obvious who the writers "sided" with. Composing a scene like that has the purpose of having the viewer be sympathetic with Frank while dismissing Annalise.
They've done this with Annalise and Wes countless times. Both were frequently left alone in tears, while typically Connor, Bonnie or Frank had the last word emphasizing they weren't worthy of compassion.

Hands down one of the worst, if not the worst, scene in the entire show. The symbolism and underlying subtextual implications were pain-stakingly clear, for me. The (white) man's rage and inability to take responsibility for his actions will always be met with compassion and sympathy whereas the black woman's grief gets dwarfed and effectively invalidated in that context because of how strong and durable she is. That season was a no lmfao.


This changed slightly this season. I wonder if they got a new script editor to fix this specifically because I notice scenes who seem to be getting there but at the last moment there's change of direction.

Indeed. I saw the clip on youtube wherein Bonnie admits she should have let Frank pull the trigger and I thought I was in the twilight zone. Never would have thought the writers would expressly tackle Franks moral bankruptcy and have Bonnie turn on him (at that moment) like she did as that never would have happened seasons previous, OFC I thnik she calls him back to her house or something like that later on?




Because Frank is white and Wes is black.
In this type of shows the attractive white male characters can't do no wrong while black male characters can't do no right.

There's even a double standard in how interracial relationships are perceived, while people generally don't like these relationships very much, the white man/black woman are far more accepted than black man/white woman pairings.
People still act like Flaurel was this big love story even when throughout their arc it was always made clear Laurel didn't have much of any feelings for Frank. Bonnie even warns her in S1 not to break his heart. I mean come on!

But they had appealing imagery on their side so nothing else mattered.

Flaurel I think is definitely one of the most overrated "ships" in the history of overrated ships. Like they just started boning eachother and all of a sudden their relationship is tantamount to Romeo and Juliet because of their "chemistry". I'm echoing your sentiments here--all they did was have sx! At least Laurel and Wes actually experienced an extensive tentative friendship stage of their true star-crossed romance but yet they're "forced" and Laurel's feelings are fake because she was only dating him for a couple of months...*insert Annalise getting out of her seat gif here*

I will say that I hated Wes and Rebecca, though. I feel like it was done to facilitate the divide between Wes and the rest of the K5 bar Laurel at times and to further position Wes and his feelings as a point of contention and dysfunction for the rest of the K5. I liked their friendship but it was never really explained why he became so infatuated with her--one could extrapolate that due to the trauma of his mother he has very weird perceptions of love/romance--but then his feelings or trauma, like you asserted, are almost always discarded so w.e.

Can I ask what you think about Season 4 so far and whether you think it's an improvement on the last seasons? Also, what seasons were or are your favourite and why?
 
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SMH. Can't say I'm too surprised about the ambivalence as it pertains to Wes' character or the antipathy, either. No other character on the show was written with as much uninhibited scorn (on the writers' part) than Wes IMO--which made it all the more easier for fans to castigate him and Alfred.
They still lost 1/3 of the audience between the end of season 3 and the start of season 4, so the feedback they got from the audience goes against the conventional wisdom about the show.

LOL I noticed this. Again, not to be too petty but a lot of them were incensed at the fact that Michaela had supplanted Connor's role as K4 representative for the Class Action suite lmao. It was kind of funny, whereas before they were extremely content with Michaela solely being Connor's sounding-board. Another plus one for S4 in that Michaela's managed to eke out some form of agency (to a degree) unrelated to what Connor does or does not do.
I remember periodically (once every month or two) there would be essentially the same post there saying something like "I just discovered the show and binged n seasons, I love Connor but hate Wes" lol. It made me seriously consider the possibility that there were Russian trolls influencing the viewers.

This show had a very heterogeneous viewership. It was a conglomerate of niches rather than a monolith. You would have never thought that going by various publications, forums and the direction the writing took.
It's interesting because the variety of opinions is definitely there once you look close enough, it's just not accounted for or dismissed for going against conventional wisdom.

What are your thoughts on Michaela's "character development" (or lackthereof) and more specifically, her charcter development in Season 4? I think this has been a very good season for her, so much so that she almost feels like a completely different character.
It was but she's still hindered by the storylines of other characters she's a part of. She was an extension of Laurel's will that paved the way for Oliver to do his thing, so her arc was always going to end in a non-constructive way for her because it was always going to end badly.
I agree that in that scene she resembles who one would expect Michaela to be in S1 and that reducing her to the best friend feels out of character for her.
I always find that Aja plays her like a character you can grasp well but the writing never really explores.

I never really got the Wes hatred, tbh. He was my favourite char. before he was unceremoniously axed It honestly perplexes me how this one character has managed to engender so much unfettered rage within an substantial quantity of people--I don't think his characterization is complex enough to say it's due to him being polarizing, but I suppose it could jst be a racial thing, too--sadly. I've just never been part of a fandom in which one character is the subject of so much unbridled rancour. It's both fascinating and somewhat disturbing, to say the least.
I think people loved to hate him more than they actually hated him. It was the popular opinion so confirmation bias played a part too I think.
It's interesting how in line with real life racial relations the hatred for Wes was, and how symptomatic the scale of it is.
The issues people had with him were his prominence and influence on the narrative meaning other characters' lives (and again considering who the popular characters were) and the lack of empathy regardless of how worthy of empathy his story was. These are things people day explicitly.
Essentially the "rage" was the result of him having power over the other characters and him being humanised.
Compare that to Michaela who was neither which made her popular especially with Connor fans - she had 0 influence on him and was there mainly to reinforce his positions whatever they are.
The vilifying of him and Annalise did offer imagery this part of the viewers liked since it turned them into antagonists.

Further confirmation comes from when one notices this complains are common for all black characters and actors for that matter. You'd see black actors described as either wooden or as over acting - both comes down to the refusal to get invested in the characters they're portraying. Saying they're wooden essentially puts the blame on the actor for the audience's lack of investment, when they're said to be overacting it means people resent them for the attention that the actors demand for their characters, which of course they resist.

On the flipside it's interesting how invested these people were in Connor who may have never been introduced leaving the main narrative of the show virtually intact. Connor, unlike, Wes was deemed worthy of being invested in simply because he existed and I found comic the compliments he was getting for his acting because for the first 2 seasons he was wearing a perpetual blank stare.

May I ask what you think of the Wes-Annalise-Laurel dynamic or if there even is one?
Laurel was more or less a plot device relative to Wes who as the show went by was also reduced to that due to the lack of character exploring (we saw plenty of what happened to Wes, but barely anything of how he was affected by it. According to Alfred those type of scenes actually exist but ended up on the cutting flor for the most part.).
I thought their dynamic could have been interesting if Pete chose to make it so. I thought Wes and Laurel would have been interesting as an item because they could shift the dynamics. they could have been a power couple in the show. Annalise and Wes practically had voids the other character could fill. I always found them to be an extension of one another.

Hands down one of the worst, if not the worst, scene in the entire show. The symbolism and underlying subtextual implications were pain-stakingly clear, for me. The (white) man's rage and inability to take responsibility for his actions will always be met with compassion and sympathy whereas the black woman's grief gets dwarfed and effectively invalidated in that context because of how strong and durable she is. That season was a no lmfao.
There's again the dissonance between the obviousness of the symbolism of that scene and how ignored it ultimately was in a general atmosphere were supposedly everybody roots for inclusiveness and writing for black characters free of this type of symbolism.
It's interesting this scene happened in the same episode that Wes was killed and Annalise sent to jail to the mother of all punishment arcs. Yet as high profile as the show is outside of members of the audience (the treatment of Annalise has a very vocal opposition within the audience and arguably Wes' too after he was killed off).
It became almost an inconvenient truth about this show.

Flaurel I think is definitely one of the most overrated "ships" in the history of overrated ships. Like they just started boning eachother and all of a sudden their relationship is tantamount to Romeo and Juliet because of their "chemistry". I'm echoing your sentiments here--all they did was have sx! At least Laurel and Wes actually experienced an extensive tentative friendship stage of their true star-crossed romance but yet they're "forced" and Laurel's feelings are fake because she was only dating him for a couple of months...*insert Annalise getting out of her seat gif here*
It's because they were written to pave the way for Wes being killed off. Laurel's feelings for Wes (if they're supposed to have started when they first kissed) didn't last less than her relationship with Frank all time jumps considered. So if they wanted to make it work they could have.
Having Laurel screw Frank when she was pregnant with Wes and retroactively when Wes was still alive is practically character destruction, which includes her avengement plot. It makes her seem shallow and robs her will to avenge Wes' death of all agency and legitimacy. It becomes about her going after her dad because he dared cross her and Wes' murder becomes immaterial to it.

I found the Wes-Laurel-Frank triangle controversy to always have a sexist and racist undertone. The white woman belonged to the white man, the black man be damned for stealing her from him.

I will say that I hated Wes and Rebecca, though. I feel like it was done to facilitate the divide between Wes and the rest of the K5 bar Laurel at times and to further position Wes and his feelings as a point of contention and dysfunction for the rest of the K5. I liked their friendship but it was never really explained why he became so infatuated with her--one could extrapolate that due to the trauma of his mother he has very weird perceptions of love/romance--but then his feelings or trauma, like you asserted, are almost always discarded so w.e.
It's not as if any other relationship in the show has any more depth than that. They're all based on horniness and neediness. Connor and Oliver became a couple when the former emotionally blackmailed the later inventing an addiction problem that never existed to cover the trauma of Sam's killing.

The problem with Wes and Rebecca is again the antagonistic writing. There's fundamentally nothing wrong with Wes wanting to help Rebecca. It's a soap opera so of course they'll end up together at some point. It's one big orgy, they all 2nd hand slept with each other at this point.
They reversed course on the premise after the first season midseason finale. The original premise provided solid reasons to side with Wes, Rebecca and Annalise. Wes was helping a troubled Rebecca unjustly accused of the murder of Sam's mistress which Annalise first suspects Sam was behind in the pilot.
After the first midseason finale the premise became Annalise, Wes and Rebecca are ruining everybody's lives and they all have to die or be ruthlessly punished for it while Coliver tries to get married.

And Rebecca became impossible once they decided she was going to die. She was clearly written as a scapegoat. Similarily Wes' storyline after her death is mirrored in Laurel's after his. Neither is sympathetic towards the character's quest to avenge/understand the murder of their loved one but rather as a disturbance to the lives of the side characters.

Can I ask what you think about Season 4 so far and whether you think it's an improvement on the last seasons? Also, what seasons were or are your favourite and why?
My opinion on the show at the end of the 2nd season changed what I thought about it up to that point. It became obvious that many viewers put more thought into the mysteries than who wrote them. So the realisation that they wing it disregarding what they've established previously took the fun away of trying to figure out what was happening. Not because I couldn't but because in order to do so all I needed to understand is how the events reflect to each character, which still stands. This of course came with the realisation that there's a deep issue in the treatment of black characters which was only reinforced as the show progressed.
S3 even ruined S1 for me. Knowing both Wes' fate and what was made out of Frank as the true culprit in Lila's murder demands a very different perception of the show than mine.

S4's overreaching mystery plots have all the issues of previous seasons and then some. I'm glad to see Annalise's narrative reversing course. But this week the season wraps and it made me remember another issue I have with this show. It's too damn slow. Annalise is more or less where we found her in the season premier but I think she should have been further along by now. I did like the class action suit though because it fit with Annalise's character development so well.
While I find it to be an improvement the burden of all the past mistakes is still very much felt and Pete still seems to refuse to learn from his mistakes.
 
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I might get back to it,but after this midseason return I just haven't been interested.

wes was the only student I cared about.IDGAF about them other ppl besides the black girl and sometimes Frank

IDGAF about Laurel's father or family.

I hate conner and Oliver.I wish both had been killed off.

but Annalise is some type of user/narcissist.

She kinda uses the kids in the way that Walter White used Jesse

Wasn't she in the room when Wes finished Sam off when he came back to the house and Sam was still alive after the fall?

Annalise is pretty shitty,that's why she takes shit from the students,plus they got too much dirt on each other to let each other go.

Frank is the most wishy washy straight killer/sensitive ladies man,with a heart of gold who kills pregnant teens.

This shit is a mess.
 
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The show jumped the shark when Wes died and they made Laurel the focus of the show in his place.

Next season they really need to go back to the season 1-2 format where there was a focus on an over arching mystery/case that they are all involved in. There should also be cases that are the focus of episodes, not the Keating 4's relationships, because that is BORING.
 
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For me the show started going down hill on season 2 but I still enjoyed it with it's flaws. I thought season 3 was pretty bad but this season here takes the cake. The official jumping the shark moment for me was when the baby was kidnapped.

They definitely do white-wash Sam every time they bring him back. Season 2 was okay but now he's basically a saint as if he didn't order the death of his pregnant woman..

At first I didn't mind Wes being killed of but then I realized there was no thought or reason to it. He was killed off for no good reason and they are dragging it out to keep the last of the viewers watching.

Taking away the classes and cases did nothing but hurt the show. Without those two things that leaves the rest of the cast doing nothing but bitching and causing problems for AK which I imagine is what Pete wants. He likes Annalise being alone and miserable. Do you remember the last time Annalise smiled? The so called mystery of season has become a joke too. I always loved Annalise and Bonnie scenes but Pete went and made their backstory horrible. Nate is pointless and Frank does nothing but screw Laurel.

At minimum we got see Viola act her ass off now she's been sidelined on her own show. I will still make the weekly threads but I'm no longer watching this show. Last week's episode was the lowest viewed of the series and I'm sure it will continue to fall with the focus on The Castillos. I'm just waiting to hear that's been canceled because Pete has no problem with how the show is. He doesn't even acknowledge the ratings drop.
Agree with everything @DC123 said
 
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I binge watched last season after losing a bit of interest in the show. The Scandal crossover was cool (I had recently finished the last 2 seasons of the series) Sadly I really can't get into this season. Feels a bit redundant. I might binge later but I think my days off following along weekly have passed.
 
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I can say that my family was watching the show until they had Viola kiss a woman. My aunt in particular felt it was too much. She wanted to see a relationship with a black man & woman. I told her the show is still good & we should support Viola but I was the only one that continued to watch it to the end. I stopped watching live after the second season and would watch every few episodes.


I totally stopped watching scandal in season 4 when they destroyed Olivia’s character & made her go back to a married man & tried to paint it as some great love story. It was not. Then brought in the black man to screw it was a mess.

I was turned off by Laurel/Wes. I never like Rebeca/Wes. the writers should have spent more time fleshing out the other characters if they were going to kill Wes and they didn’t.
 

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