Why self pleasure and anything sex related an awkward topic in church?

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Religious Christians like to act sex only happens after marriage. As if lust doesn't exist, sexuality isn't explored and hormones don't happen.

This prudish behaviour is unreal, God created beings and mating, other IVF and other course of having children. Human beings have sex and God created this, it is the most natural feeling sexual from teenage years to adult years. I do believe sex is spiritual connection and private but why Christians act like it doesn't exist.

Let's not forget cultures in the middle east and Islamic extremists believe women cover their whole body so that a man won't lust which is beyond foolish.

Erica Campbell Says Masturbation Is Not Pure: 'Don't Cheapen It'
 
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I swear many Christians don’t actually read their bible or are so stuck on using the KJV that they don’t understand what it says.

There’s a story in the Bible where God wants a man to impregnate his brother’s widow but instead the man pulls out and his seed spills on the ground. God gets mad and kills him. Somehow Christians took this story and interpreted it to mean masturbation is bad.

It is not bad and it is not a sin. Now pornography and being lustful towards people other than your spouse is wrong, but it’s no worse a sin than lying, etc.

Honestly everyone needs to just worry about themselves and what they do, not others.

If Erica Campbell doesn’t want to masturbate that’s fine, but she needs not push her opinions on others.
 
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I think it's because they don't have anywhere near any idea how to tackle it.

Masturbation does cheapen sex. I'm a man. I can't count how many times I have masturbated. Masturbating alone is a hollow, useless replica of sex. If you're with your SO then it can be awesome but alone it's a waste of time and effort. I remember one sermon where the pastor said "Lust is never satisfied" and that is the truth. It's like a rabbit hole. You masturbate to "curb the urge" and that may be fine for about an hour but once you clean that mess off you, give it a couple minutes and you're ready to do it again. Did you really "curb the urge" or did you just add more fuel to the fire?

A lot of people want to try and campaign for porn as if that's okay. You aren't hurting anyone they say. I have this argument with so many friends of mine because they love their porn. I have interacted with many porn stars and I know them to be some of the most damaged people I have ever spoken with. I can't speak on all the other things such as underage women and sex trafficking as I haven't seen any of that and I'm thankful for it. All the women I've seen have been of age and consenting. Even so they are still damaged. How is that? I have a friend now who is struggling with her husband whom would rather sit in the room and masturbate then have sex with her. Man can't get erect to begin with because he's busy masturbating when she isn't looking. You all may say "She sucks in bed". I'd go with that if they had sex to begin with. This has always been an issue. "She shouldn't have married him". You're sidestepping the point. We're not talking about her marriage. We're talking about the fact that her man masturbates over having sex with her. Masturbation has repercussions. This is one of them. If you masturbate too much you end up preferring that over human interaction. Porn has serious repercussions. How many people masturbate just sitting in a room? I've done it but that isn't how many do it. Usually people have some sort of stimuli right? Usually that stimuli is porn. The church ain't trying to talk about porn either. Why is that?

I remember I was speaking in a thread on here and I had said that the church has failed us. I told the pastor in church recently that it is their job to teach us. The church isn't trying to talk about it so we learn all of this junk the hard way. There are some who try to warn people and they find out people aren't trying to hear it such as my warning my friends. People want to live however they want and think it's okay and that isn't how this works.

I truly wish the church would speak more on the dangers of masturbation and pornography. Not all of this stuff about it being a sin, cheating on the wife you don't have, lusting after women, and those kinds of things. Some of that stuff is really farfetched. I remember hearing it was coveting my neighbor's wife even though she wasn't married. I'm coveting someone that may be marrying someone some day. At that point I was a horny teenager. What did I care about coveting a woman online? I just wanted to masturbate. I feel like the church needs to really break it down and explain just why masturbation and porn are wrong and the repercussions for all of this.
 
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I swear many Christians don’t actually read their bible or are so stuck on using the KJV that they don’t understand what it says.

There’s a story in the Bible where God wants a man to impregnate his brother’s widow but instead the man pulls out and his seed spills on the ground. God gets mad and kills him. Somehow Christians took this story and interpreted it to mean masturbation is bad.
That's what I mean about being farfetched. I heard that when I was young as well. It's my understanding God struck that man dead because He told the man to have a child and the man refused. It wasn't that he spilled his seed so much as He had a direct command from God and didn't do it.

It is not bad and it is not a sin. Now pornography and being lustful towards people other than your spouse is wrong, but it’s no worse a sin than lying, etc.
All sin is sin in the eyes of the Lord though.

And TBH, that's the hardest part about it. Masturbation itself is rooted in lust. How do you masturbate without lust? I remember I heard someone speak on that once before and they said something like if you can manage to masturbate with a clear mind and not one lustful thought have at it. I don't know about you but I find that impossible.

Honestly everyone needs to just worry about themselves and what they do, not others.

If Erica Campbell doesn’t want to masturbate that’s fine, but she needs not push her opinions on others.
I disagree.

If everyone worried about themselves and what they did we'd never learn from others mistakes and the church wouldn't teach us anything.
 
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A lot of people want to try and campaign for porn as if that's okay. You aren't hurting anyone they say. I have this argument with so many friends of mine because they love their porn.

Masturbation has repercussions. This is one of them. If you masturbate too much you end up preferring that over human interaction. Porn has serious repercussions..


I totally agree! porn is very hurtful.
 
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I think it's because they don't have anywhere near any idea how to tackle it.

Masturbation does cheapen sex. I'm a man. I can't count how many times I have masturbated. Masturbating alone is a hollow, useless replica of sex. If you're with your SO then it can be awesome but alone it's a waste of time and effort. I remember one sermon where the pastor said "Lust is never satisfied" and that is the truth. It's like a rabbit hole. You masturbate to "curb the urge" and that may be fine for about an hour but once you clean that mess off you, give it a couple minutes and you're ready to do it again. Did you really "curb the urge" or did you just add more fuel to the fire?

But basically, as long as things are in moderation, they're harmless. What you're talking about is going into addiction territory. You can be a person who eats a normal amount of food or be someone who overeats to the point of it ruining your life, (weighing 600 pounds, unable to walk, etc.)

You could be a person who is able to drink alcohol responsibly, have 1 drink and stop, or you could be someone who has to drink 8 glasses to the point of inebriation and letting it takeover your life.

Same thing with sex/masturbation. As you said, if someone just did it and then an hour later wants to do it again...that sounds like an addiction or a person with addict tendencies. Not everyone who engages in self pleasure is an addict, needing to do it compulsively all day. I personally don't see how it is wrong if done in moderation. You are a healthy adult human, after all, even if you don't have a partner.

When you talk about being unsatisfied, I wonder if this is more of a male thing? Women in many cases, sadly do not experience orgasm with their male partners. Because the men don't know what they're doing, don't understand women's body parts down there, or don't care. Many women actually can be "fully satisfied" physically from masturbation. I suspect that men cannot achieve the same physical satisfaction on their own, and that fact honestly explains so much in our society.

I mean, I sit and wonder why so many men go around using and deceiving so many women and causing so much pain to the women they've abandoned, the illegitimate children they've abandoned.... like, if you weren't in love, never cared about her, why didn't you just masturbate instead of causing all this pain and destruction? But I guess for men the fake doesn't compare to the "real thing" so they'll do ANYTHING to get it, even lying to women, faking relationships.

With women, it really isn't the case. When a woman is allowing a guy to have sex with her, it's usually always because she feels something more than just physical and she feels validated in some way by it.


I
I truly wish the church would speak more on the dangers of masturbation and pornography. Not all of this stuff about it being a sin, cheating on the wife you don't have, lusting after women, and those kinds of things. Some of that stuff is really farfetched. I remember hearing it was coveting my neighbor's wife even though she wasn't married. I'm coveting someone that may be marrying someone some day. At that point I was a horny teenager. What did I care about coveting a woman online? I just wanted to masturbate. I feel like the church needs to really break it down and explain just why masturbation and porn are wrong and the repercussions for all of this.

I don't see how a non married human being physically attracted to another non married human being as some horrible sin. It is normal for teenagers to want to have sex. Your body has pretty much become adult even though your brain is not. In our current society we frown upon teenagers exploring sex or getting married. Therefore many males AND females turn to masturbation. There is nothing wrong with that.

I would dare say it is much better for teenagers to do this rather than experimenting with the opposite sex and risk teenage pregnancy or contracting std's.

I don't understand why humans have used religion to make people afraid of and be ashamed of their own bodies and have all this guilt about the natural feelings of being human.
 
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I swear many Christians don’t actually read their bible or are so stuck on using the KJV that they don’t understand what it says.

There’s a story in the Bible where God wants a man to impregnate his brother’s widow but instead the man pulls out and his seed spills on the ground. God gets mad and kills him. Somehow Christians took this story and interpreted it to mean masturbation is bad.

It is not bad and it is not a sin. Now pornography and being lustful towards people other than your spouse is wrong, but it’s no worse a sin than lying, etc.

Honestly everyone needs to just worry about themselves and what they do, not others.

If Erica Campbell doesn’t want to masturbate that’s fine, but she needs not push her opinions on others.

God sees all sin the same.

James 2:10

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
 
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I swear many Christians don’t actually read their bible or are so stuck on using the KJV that they don’t understand what it says.

There’s a story in the Bible where God wants a man to impregnate his brother’s widow but instead the man pulls out and his seed spills on the ground. God gets mad and kills him. Somehow Christians took this story and interpreted it to mean masturbation is bad.

It is not bad and it is not a sin. Now pornography and being lustful towards people other than your spouse is wrong, but it’s no worse a sin than lying, etc.

Honestly everyone needs to just worry about themselves and what they do, not others.

If Erica Campbell doesn’t want to masturbate that’s fine, but she needs not push her opinions on others.
When you masturbate how often are you able to do that without having lustful thoughts (even if the lust is towards your own self), especially if you are someone who isn’t married?

What you do when you’re married is your business (lust can also be a problem within marriage) but it’s not correct for single people to be engaging in.

Matthew 5:27-30 is more apt to deal with this issue of sexual desire and lust than the man who spilled his seed on the ground. It is an issue of the heart and it’s posture which leads to a choice in what to do rather than solely based on the physical act.
i.e. it’s not wrong to feel aroused but what you choose to do when you are, depending on your circumstances - or even how you got there - is where the real issue lies.
 
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I swear many Christians don’t actually read their bible or are so stuck on using the KJV that they don’t understand what it says.

There’s a story in the Bible where God wants a man to impregnate his brother’s widow but instead the man pulls out and his seed spills on the ground. God gets mad and kills him. Somehow Christians took this story and interpreted it to mean masturbation is bad.

It is not bad and it is not a sin. Now pornography and being lustful towards people other than your spouse is wrong, but it’s no worse a sin than lying, etc.

Honestly everyone needs to just worry about themselves and what they do, not others.

If Erica Campbell doesn’t want to masturbate that’s fine, but she needs not push her opinions on others.

Maybe you shouldn’t tell people who are practicing something about what is right and wrong. Clearly you missed the point. Its saying MALE masturbation is wrong because sex is for reproduction FIRST. So is birth control it’s an act that’s wrong. THATS what the word says.
 
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Religious Christians like to act sex only happens after marriage. As if lust doesn't exist, sexuality isn't explored and hormones don't happen.

This prudish behaviour is unreal, God created beings and mating, other IVF and other course of having children. Human beings have sex and God created this, it is the most natural feeling sexual from teenage years to adult years. I do believe sex is spiritual connection and private but why Christians act like it doesn't exist.

Let's not forget cultures in the middle east and Islamic extremists believe women cover their whole body so that a man won't lust which is beyond foolish.

Erica Campbell Says Masturbation Is Not Pure: 'Don't Cheapen It'

What lol What believers are you around? We know sex is a thing but you are supposed to be married not out here doing whatever you want. There are rules, lust is discussed biblically. You are to deny temptation this is the point of female coverings. God didn’t create IVF people went off on a tangent and did what they wanted and you see where it’s gotten us. If you find it prudish take that up with God himself but you have to increase your understanding because you are speaking from a place of ignorance.
 
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Whether you're on the Christian side or the Occult side, an orgasm is a spiritual release. On the up and up it's meant to be shared with a spouse and only one spouse. So there's that. I think the church is careful with these topics because they don't want to trigger anybody's lust with certain conversations.
 
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But basically, as long as things are in moderation, they're harmless. What you're talking about is going into addiction territory. You can be a person who eats a normal amount of food or be someone who overeats to the point of it ruining your life, (weighing 600 pounds, unable to walk, etc.)

You could be a person who is able to drink alcohol responsibly, have 1 drink and stop, or you could be someone who has to drink 8 glasses to the point of inebriation and letting it takeover your life.

Same thing with sex/masturbation. As you said, if someone just did it and then an hour later wants to do it again...that sounds like an addiction or a person with addict tendencies. Not everyone who engages in self pleasure is an addict, needing to do it compulsively all day. I personally don't see how it is wrong if done in moderation. You are a healthy adult human, after all, even if you don't have a partner.

When you talk about being unsatisfied, I wonder if this is more of a male thing? Women in many cases, sadly do not experience orgasm with their male partners. Because the men don't know what they're doing, don't understand women's body parts down there, or don't care. Many women actually can be "fully satisfied" physically from masturbation. I suspect that men cannot achieve the same physical satisfaction on their own, and that fact honestly explains so much in our society.

I mean, I sit and wonder why so many men go around using and deceiving so many women and causing so much pain to the women they've abandoned, the illegitimate children they've abandoned.... like, if you weren't in love, never cared about her, why didn't you just masturbate instead of causing all this pain and destruction? But I guess for men the fake doesn't compare to the "real thing" so they'll do ANYTHING to get it, even lying to women, faking relationships.

With women, it really isn't the case. When a woman is allowing a guy to have sex with her, it's usually always because she feels something more than just physical and she feels validated in some way by it.




I don't see how a non married human being physically attracted to another non married human being as some horrible sin. It is normal for teenagers to want to have sex. Your body has pretty much become adult even though your brain is not. In our current society we frown upon teenagers exploring sex or getting married. Therefore many males AND females turn to masturbation. There is nothing wrong with that.

I would dare say it is much better for teenagers to do this rather than experimenting with the opposite sex and risk teenage pregnancy or contracting std's.

I don't understand why humans have used religion to make people afraid of and be ashamed of their own bodies and have all this guilt about the natural feelings of being human.

I don’t know about religion but I know why God demands us to be a certain way with our bodies and it’s not a shaming tactic it’s what’s right. The body is a temple to the Father and he only dwells in holiness. If your temple is filthy how then can God dwell? How then can he help you. Say what you want masturbation is wrong and just like you struggle, believers struggle to the difference is we acknowledge and take appropriate steps even when we fail. God does not expect perfection out of us but obedience and a repentant heart.
 
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I'm not in the camp that says masturbation is wrong. Some people are making a "law" where there is none. What is wrong is sex with someone you're not married to. I haven't read in the Word where that includes you by yourself. If there's a solid Scripture regarding this, I would like to know. From what I've read/studied, the Word doesn't speak about masturbation. I suspect because it's so natural that even babies/children masturbate.

I would stay away from trying to police other people's thought life. If anything I would say "lustful thoughts" are a projection.You really don't know what is considered as lustful for another person and it may not be what you think. Also like I said babies/children masturbate in discovering their bodies and there are no lustful thoughts involved.

Pornography is a big NO. I do think it can cause problems when you get married and it does objectify both men and women. As well as providing false sexual expectations.

I think the real reason masturbation isn't talked about is because they want people to get married and if you start talking about masturbation, you have to be able to prove it's wrong by way of the Scriptures and you can't. So all you're left with is an opened can of worms and your opinion and well we all have one of those....
 
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I'm not in the camp that says masturbation is wrong. Some people are making a "law" where there is none. What is wrong is sex with someone you're not married to. I haven't read in the Word where that includes you by yourself. If there's a solid Scripture regarding this, I would like to know. From what I've read/studied, the Word doesn't speak about masturbation.

This justification is wild. An adult masturbating and a child discovering what body parts they have and what they can do are two different things. I won’t bother with the animal comment because we aren’t animals in the wild.

Anyway, there is scripture on what is best practice for sexual release. That is marriage. If not married... then it says to “flee [insert whichever translation you like best here] and that is because such a desire isn’t one to be played with for a number of reasons.
There is scripture on what to do with lust. Granted, lust isn’t just sexual but it’s there and is most commonly associated with sex and sexual gratification. People get caught up in “oh touching yourself isn’t explicitly in the bible” but when you get to a certain point in your walk with Christ, you’ll stop trying to see where you can toe the line and how far you can push a boundary in favour of how you can maintain a posture that is acceptable to the Holy Spirit and God. Where your heart and mind is when you’re trying to get off is of major importance. If you’re not married and you’re trying to do yourself while alone, then boi, I dunno for you and where your head’s at in that moment (there’s scripture that can be applied there too) and what led to it. If you’re feeling a way because hormones are doing what God naturally made them to do, there are plenty of other alternatives to get the excess energy out of your system and distract yourself until the feeling passes. I know working out is a popular one amongst quite a few abstinent Christian men.

Don’t let how the world does things get you caught up because of what the bible doesn’t say, when there’s plenty of guideline to show what is the standard of good practice and plenty of guidance and help that can be sought from God wherever there is a struggle...
 
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This justification is wild. An adult masturbating and a child discovering what body parts they have and what they can do are two different things. I won’t bother with the animal comment because we aren’t animals in the wild.

Anyway, there is scripture on what is best practice for sexual release. That is marriage. If not married... then it says to “flee [insert whichever translation you like best here] and that is because such a desire isn’t one to be played with for a number of reasons.
There is scripture on what to do with lust. Granted, lust isn’t just sexual but it’s there and is most commonly associated with sex and sexual gratification. People get caught up in “oh touching yourself isn’t explicitly in the bible” but when you get to a certain point in your walk with Christ, you’ll stop trying to see where you can toe the line and how far you can push a boundary in favour of how you can maintain a posture that is acceptable to the Holy Spirit and God. Where your heart and mind is when you’re trying to get off is of major importance. If you’re not married and you’re trying to do yourself while alone, then boi, I dunno for you and where your head’s at in that moment (there’s scripture that can be applied there too) and what led to it. If you’re feeling a way because hormones are doing what God naturally made them to do, there are plenty of other alternatives to get the excess energy out of your system and distract yourself until the feeling passes. I know working out is a popular one amongst quite a few abstinent Christian men.

Don’t let how the world does things get you caught up because of what the bible doesn’t say, when there’s plenty of guideline to show what is the standard of good practice and plenty of guidance and help that can be sought from God wherever there is a struggle...

You did A LOT of talking but you still didn't post ANY Scriptures that speak against masturbation. Now if you had actually done a real bible study on masturbation, you would find the Word of God is not shy talking about sex and/or sexual sins at all. As a matter of fact God is very blatant about the human body and/or sexual sins/works of the flesh and masturbation isn't one of them.

You need to be honest and acknowledge the fact that masturbation isn't a sexual sin or a work of the flesh. Touching yourself for sexual pleasure isn't immoral. That's what I meant when I said both children and adults do this. Now you can say, "it's different for children" but is it?

What animal comment? What are you talking about? As human beings we do have a God given sexual nature. So don't start some weird crap here.

Now you can be like the Pharisees, make laws where there aren't any, and put more burdens on people or you can be honest and say that "there are no Scriptures speaking on masturbation at all. None for and none against but this is what you believe and why". Instructing the person to do their own study in the Word. I think doing that is of integrity.

Being told to flee fornication means just that. It doesn't mean anything else. Fornication isn't masturbation. To try and make them one in the same is dishonest on your part.

Being married doesn't eradicate masturbation. People have different sex drives and sometimes their sex drive is larger than their mate. So they utilize masturbation which is more than often agreed upon. The same can be said for health issues in a marriage.

For years as a Born Again Christian, I just assumed masturbation was a sin even though it was never really talked about. Which I think was interpreted as it was wrong. Years later I finally sat down and did a real study on the subject. I really thought there would be Scriptures on the subject. Only to find out that there aren't any Scriptures and that Onan had been misinterpreted.

What I have found is that the most people can do is use Scriptures that are very "general". So according to them the topic would be inclusive under "this" category. Doing this usually results in really bad hermeneutics which involves cherry picking and Scripture twisting. Not good.

Also down through the years in my walk with the Lord I've observed that there are some "church people" who don't understand that our humanity is NOT the "flesh" and that may be why masturbation isn't considered a sexual sin/work of the flesh because it's part of our humanity as human beings. I'm just saying...I don't know but could be...
 
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Born again Christian here! Masturbation is a no-no. I used to do it occasionally and now that I’ve stopped, the Holy Spirit dwells within me when that’s never happened to me before.

1st Thessalonians 5:19 “Don’t Quench the Spirit”.

The Most High God doesn’t bend the rules like us humans have a bad habit of doing. You’re literally inviting demons to dwell in your temple and blocking your holy connection with the Lord with any sexual immorality.
 
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I think it's because they don't have anywhere near any idea how to tackle it.

Masturbation does cheapen sex. I'm a man. I can't count how many times I have masturbated. Masturbating alone is a hollow, useless replica of sex. If you're with your SO then it can be awesome but alone it's a waste of time and effort. I remember one sermon where the pastor said "Lust is never satisfied" and that is the truth. It's like a rabbit hole. You masturbate to "curb the urge" and that may be fine for about an hour but once you clean that mess off you, give it a couple minutes and you're ready to do it again. Did you really "curb the urge" or did you just add more fuel to the fire?

A lot of people want to try and campaign for porn as if that's okay. You aren't hurting anyone they say. I have this argument with so many friends of mine because they love their porn. I have interacted with many porn stars and I know them to be some of the most damaged people I have ever spoken with. I can't speak on all the other things such as underage women and sex trafficking as I haven't seen any of that and I'm thankful for it. All the women I've seen have been of age and consenting. Even so they are still damaged. How is that? I have a friend now who is struggling with her husband whom would rather sit in the room and masturbate then have sex with her. Man can't get erect to begin with because he's busy masturbating when she isn't looking. You all may say "She sucks in bed". I'd go with that if they had sex to begin with. This has always been an issue. "She shouldn't have married him". You're sidestepping the point. We're not talking about her marriage. We're talking about the fact that her man masturbates over having sex with her. Masturbation has repercussions. This is one of them. If you masturbate too much you end up preferring that over human interaction. Porn has serious repercussions. How many people masturbate just sitting in a room? I've done it but that isn't how many do it. Usually people have some sort of stimuli right? Usually that stimuli is porn. The church ain't trying to talk about porn either. Why is that?

I remember I was speaking in a thread on here and I had said that the church has failed us. I told the pastor in church recently that it is their job to teach us. The church isn't trying to talk about it so we learn all of this junk the hard way. There are some who try to warn people and they find out people aren't trying to hear it such as my warning my friends. People want to live however they want and think it's okay and that isn't how this works.

I truly wish the church would speak more on the dangers of masturbation and pornography. Not all of this stuff about it being a sin, cheating on the wife you don't have, lusting after women, and those kinds of things. Some of that stuff is really farfetched. I remember hearing it was coveting my neighbor's wife even though she wasn't married. I'm coveting someone that may be marrying someone some day. At that point I was a horny teenager. What did I care about coveting a woman online? I just wanted to masturbate. I feel like the church needs to really break it down and explain just why masturbation and porn are wrong and the repercussions for all of this.


This whole response is a sermon. Yasss


I never feel more alone then right after I mast.
I literally look around and search for someone that I know isnt there.


After making love to a person you love, you feel fulfilled.
You'll never feel fulfilled after mastur, its empty
 

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Why Would Nicki Minaj Dress Like This @ A NBA Game?
She looks so thirsty. She was trying HARD to get a ballers attention.
Twitter is upset with Ciara and Russell for paying woman’s tab @ restaurant and tipping
They’re mad because he called them Black Queens. Why would he say it to all when the note was fir two specific people. Russ and Ci said what...
Atlanta Tea 2.0: 2021 Edition
not brittany saying she a womanist and a feminist then exposing another woman’s abuse directly after. these girls are loony.
Gorgeous Black model and her hunk hubby
This, for a site that has divested they seem to bothered by black, like who cares? Also her husband seems like he is from a wealthy family so her...
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Black woman goes on mini rant, says she gonna support Asian nail shops no matter what! “They...
It has everything to do with it. You are ok with giving money to people that hate blacks and have a history of talking shit about us. You are ok...
Liv's Life: Living My Best Lie!
She’s finally found the true woman beating she’s been looking for. I’m sure taking him from a woman she considers herself better looking than made...
SWV vs. XSCAPE VERZUZ BATTLE | May 8th, 2021
Gotta go with SWV. Here for the showdown. This hairstyle was the $hit back in those days. LMAO it's my mom's go to
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F1 Racing 2021 Season Thread
I missed the last race yall :( I'll be watching tomorrow with yall though!
Brixana (Briana Monique') Discussion
It’s giving Amistad Girl I almost choked on my food. Not amistad.
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